Issue troubleshooting 50a pid panel

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M25

M25

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Hi all,
Really scratching my head over this one. Hoping to get some thoughts on what to check next. Doing final testing on a 50a diy pid panel from ebrewsupply for an eherms build. As far as I can tell the whole 110v side works fine. The elements on the other hand...are not. When the elements are not plugged in aND I turn the switch on for the element, the firing light comes on and stays on. When I plug the element in, it goes off. No matter what combo I do that on its the case. Same for both hlt and boil. The light when I flip the switch makes me think pid setting. It turning off makes me think short or other wiring mess up. No heating taking place. So far I've check3d the element wiring and power routing through the relays and stuff. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

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When you say you checked the element wiring do you mean with a multi-meter? Are you getting voltage from the PID to the SSR?
 
And just to be clear -- what do you mean by firing light? The indicator lights on the panel there, or the out light on the PID?

You do have your temp probes plugged in, right? Just mentioning since they arent in the pictures.
 
Winger22: I meant i physically opened up the enclosure on the element inside the kettle and checked to make sure it wasnt shorted out. I just checked the PID-> SSR for connectivity and made sure they were lined up correctly. I'll check for voltage, though. good idea.... not sure why i didnt think of doing that.

iijakii: the yellow illuminates when the black element switch is turned on and the contactor has a connection, the white light illuminates when the element actually receives power (ie when the SSR makes a connection). My probes are reporting the proper temperature as far as i can tell.

I'll report back tomorrow when i get a chance to check some voltages. thanks guys
 
It's likely an artifact from not having the element plugged in. Element firing lights are usually wired in parallel with the elements, and SSR's have a small amount of leakage current when they are off. With the element disconnected, 100% of this leakage current flow thru the indicator light. This current may be enough to light the LED indicator, when the element is not connected to shunt the current away from the LED.

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
It's likely an artifact from not having the element plugged in. Element firing lights are usually wired in parallel with the elements, and SSR's have a small amount of leakage current when they are off. With the element disconnected, 100% of this leakage current flow thru the indicator light. This current may be enough to light the LED indicator, when the element is not connected to shunt the current away from the LED.



Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...


This!
 
Sweet! thanks doug293cz... I had started to believe there were 2 seperate issues. I think what you're saying about the light is true. now only 1 issue! And actually, after researching just that. I've found that the same is true between the 2 output pins of the SSR.

I tested the voltage across the SSR this morning.
Element Switch off: no V across either 220 or 110. cool
Element Switch on: 220 across the output. nothing across 110... this is true regardless of whether the PID has it's "OUT" light on and is firing for lack of a better term.

realizing the 220 is normal, i should get a voltage across the 2 pins of the 110 on the SSR correct? am I measuring it properly?

same result across both SSRs so confident it's not the SSRs unless i've managed to fry them. they've always been hooked up like that though. The only thing i tried was reversing the polarity on 110 just in case... obviously with no amazing results.

this is the exact relay i have: http://www.ebrewsupply.com/40a-solid-state-relay-ssr-v2/
 
The exact issue has been identified. The PID is not sending an output voltage. i replaced the PID with a 12VDC power charger and everything worked perfectly from SSR to the element heating quite happily. double checked the PID, no voltage across pins 1 and 2. Love 16C controller. Any thoughts on a setting in the PID that may cause this to be happening?
 
M25 said:
The exact issue has been identified. The PID is not sending an output voltage. i replaced the PID with a 12VDC power charger and everything worked perfectly from SSR to the element heating quite happily. double checked the PID, no voltage across pins 1 and 2. Love 16C controller. Any thoughts on a setting in the PID that may cause this to be happening?
Click to expand...
Do you have a temp sensor connected to the PID? Many PID's will not output a control signal without having what looks like a good temperature signal. This is to prevent a thermal run-away in the case of a failed temp sensor.

Brew on :mug:
 
M25 said:
Sweet! thanks doug293cz... I had started to believe there were 2 seperate issues. I think what you're saying about the light is true. now only 1 issue! And actually, after researching just that. I've found that the same is true between the 2 output pins of the SSR.

I tested the voltage across the SSR this morning.
Element Switch off: no V across either 220 or 110. cool
Element Switch on: 220 across the output. nothing across 110... this is true regardless of whether the PID has it's "OUT" light on and is firing for lack of a better term.

realizing the 220 is normal, i should get a voltage across the 2 pins of the 110 on the SSR correct? am I measuring it properly?

same result across both SSRs so confident it's not the SSRs unless i've managed to fry them. they've always been hooked up like that though. The only thing i tried was reversing the polarity on 110 just in case... obviously with no amazing results.

this is the exact relay i have: http://www.ebrewsupply.com/40a-solid-state-relay-ssr-v2/
Click to expand...

Here's what you should measure across pins 1 & 2 of the SSR under various conditions:
  • Element plugged in, SSR off: 240V
  • Element plugged in, SSR on: less than 2V
  • No element, SSR off: not sure, but probably less than 10V
  • No element, SSR on: less than 2V
There should never be a case where you measure 120V across pins 1 & 2 of the SSR.

Brew on :mug:
 
I do have a probe hooked up and the temperature is correct by comparison to a thermometer. I had an error right when i started testing (well before this post) but the PID flashed an error code and i fixed it pretty easily (crossed wires) . I did just switch the other two wires on the probe around just to be sure but it didn't have an effect.

Thanks for posting the voltages. I think it'll come in handy when someone else googles the issue. I was able to get he SSR to turn on, though, with an external power source and everything worked great. Definitely the PID... or something related to it.
 
If you have to replace the PID, you might want to look at Auber's DSPR120 (or DSPR300) controller. They can perform the same function as a PID, but use a different control algorithm that isn't as sensitive to the tuning variables as are PID's. The folks here at HBT who have used them find them to be better at hitting and holding temperatures than PID's. Also, they are much better suited to controlling boil power than are PID's in manual mode. They do however, only work with PT100 temp sensors, so if you are set on using thermocouples, the DSPR's won't work for you.

Brew on :mug:
 
Issue resolved... Turns out 2 out of 3 PIDS were the correct type. One was a 16C3 the other 2 were the correct 16C2. Guess which one i was dubugging on... yup. C3. the incorrect one. I had the polarity reversed on the others output but didn't think it would work because it hadnt worked on the C3. I changed out the MT for the wrong type becuase it just effects the output channels and boom we are up and running. Thank you for the tips and tricks guys i appreciate it!
 
doug293cz said:
If you have to replace the PID, you might want to look at Auber's DSPR120 (or DSPR300) controller. They can perform the same function as a PID, but use a different control algorithm that isn't as sensitive to the tuning variables as are PID's. The folks here at HBT who have used them find them to be better at hitting and holding temperatures than PID's. Also, they are much better suited to controlling boil power than are PID's in manual mode. They do however, only work with PT100 temp sensors, so if you are set on using thermocouples, the DSPR's won't work for you.

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...

So besides the PT100 temp sensors, the wiring stays the same when switching out for the Aurber DSPR120?
 
beergutbrew said:
So besides the PT100 temp sensors, the wiring stays the same when switching out for the Aurber DSPR120?
Click to expand...

The basic wiring stays the same, but the terminal connections are in different positions for all the different controller types, so you have to have the instruction manual for the specific controller you use to know where to connect the power, SSR, temp probe, etc. You can find links to the DSPR manual near the bottom of this page.

Brew on :mug:
 

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