BIAB data points to capture

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pretzelb

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After reading a recent post on what factors go into mash efficiency I think I'm missing some data points in my brewing stats. I capture the mash water volume and the volume into the boiler but I think more needs to be captured to get to the lauter efficiency.

Should you be capturing gravity and volume before you do any squeezing? If you don't do full volume and instead sparge with some water, do you measure all the steps in between? And squeeze before the sparge and after?

My goal is to collect all the data points so I can come back and get help here if needed. Seems like even with collecting all the data I do I'm always missing something for the conversion and latuer efficiency.
 
My suggestion, search and download the biabacus spreadsheet and use it. For me after trying a few options, it is the best combination of calculator, check sheet, and note taking software for biab. It will help you know what to track.
 
Critical measurements in any system are as follows:

Grain wt into mash
Mash water volume
Wort volume collected (1st runnings plus sparge)
Wort gravity (before any other sugar or extract additions are made)
Pre-boil volume (may be the same as wort volume collected if no additions are made)
Pre-boil gravity (again, may be the same as gravity of wort collected if there are not additions made)
post boil volume
post boil gravity
volume into fermentor
volume of trub
gravity into fermentor (which may be the same as post boil gravity if no additions are made)

From this data set, you should be able to figure out your mash/lauter efficiency, grain absorption rate, boil off rate, and brew house efficiency.
 
To compute mash efficiency you need to measure the post-mash volume and gravity (after sparging and/or squeezing). These, plus the weight of the grain, will let you calculate the efficiency.
 
To compute mash efficiency you need to measure the post-mash volume and gravity (after sparging and/or squeezing). These, plus the weight of the grain, will let you calculate the efficiency.

I was happy when I thought I had the data needed for mash efficiency. But then I read other posts about getting even more detailed. That includes conversion and lauter efficiency. So now I'm trying to get ready for my next brew in case i want help with the results.
 
Plan on the low end say 62% for your first go/without sparging. With sparging I can get an extra 10 points easily. Once got up to 80... After the first run you'll have a good idea of what your system can do.

Can take all the measurements you want though, if you have a refractometer no problem. Or set aside a few samples in order. I sparge with thermouses and find 4 ltres gets me sufficient efficiency without lots of squeezing and can get consistent efficiency.
 
To fully diagnose efficiency issues, the following measurements are needed:
  • Grain bill weight
  • Strike water volume (everything prior to initial run off)
  • SG of wort at end of mash, or first runnings SG
  • Sparge process (fly, batch, none)
  • Sparge water volume (for each batch sparge if more than one)
  • Pre-boil volume
  • Pre-boil SG
  • Weight & type of any sugar added to the boil
  • Post-boil volume
  • Post-boil SG (OG)
  • Volume into fermenter
Accurate measurements are critical, since the efficiency calculations cannot be better than the measurement accuracy. All volumes should be corrected for thermal expansion to 68˚F, or the volume measurement temperature reported, so that corrections can be made. Hydrometer measurements should be taken with the wort temp within 20˚F of the hydrometer's calibration temperature, and then corrected for the temperature at which the measurement was made.

Mash Efficiency = Conversion Efficiency * Lauter Efficiency
Brewhouse Efficiency = Mash Efficiency * Transfer Efficiency
Transfer Efficiency = Fermenter Volume / Post-boil Volume

With the measurements listed above, all of the factors in the above equations can be calculated. Conversion efficiency should be greater than 95%. Lauter efficiency is a function of sparge process and grain weight to pre-boil volume ratio, and maximum achievable can be predicted (but not as accurately for fly sparge.) Once you know which efficiency factor is lower than what should be achievable, then you know what part of your process needs to be addressed.

Brew on :mug:
 
Conversion efficiency should be greater than 95%.

How are you calculating for conversion efficiency? If I could start with 95% of the max sugars just from a mash and prior to a sparge then my numbers wold be off the chart. My last 5g high gravity recipe had a max points of 731 which with an estimated preboil (post mash) of 7.5g was 97.47. If I were to grab just 90% of that I would have started with 1087 ( (731/7.5) * .9).
 
How are you calculating for conversion efficiency? If I could start with 95% of the max sugars just from a mash and prior to a sparge then my numbers wold be off the chart. My last 5g high gravity recipe had a max points of 731 which with an estimated preboil (post mash) of 7.5g was 97.47. If I were to grab just 90% of that I would have started with 1087 ( (731/7.5) * .9).

Remember, mash efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency. What ends up in your boil kettle is determined by mash efficiency, and in a well conducted mash, most of the efficiency losses will be from lautering. If you get 100% conversion efficiency, and have 75% lauter efficiency, you have 75% mash (or pre-boil) efficiency.

Conversion efficiency is calculated by determining the maximum potential weight of sugar in the mash, then using the amount of water used in the mash (all water added prior to initial run-off) to calculate the maximum possible density of the wort in the mash in ˚Plato, and converting ˚Plato into SG.
˚Plato = 100 * Sugar_Weight / (Sugar_Weight + Water_Weight)​
Next you measure the actual SG of the mash wort (or first runnings), convert SG to ˚Plato, and then calculate how much sugar was actually created in the mash (which has to be less than or equal to the maximum potential sugar.) Finally you divide the weight of the sugar actually created by the maximum potential weight of the sugar, and that equals your mash efficiency.

Brew on :mug:
 
Conversion efficiency is calculated by determining the maximum potential weight of sugar in the mash, then using the amount of water used in the mash (all water added prior to initial run-off) to calculate the maximum possible density of the wort in the mash in ˚Plato, and converting ˚Plato into SG.
˚Plato = 100 * Sugar_Weight / (Sugar_Weight + Water_Weight)​
Next you measure the actual SG of the mash wort (or first runnings), convert SG to ˚Plato, and then calculate how much sugar was actually created in the mash (which has to be less than or equal to the maximum potential sugar.) Finally you divide the weight of the sugar actually created by the maximum potential weight of the sugar, and that equals your mash efficiency.

Brew on :mug:

I poked around and finally found your notes on the topic after entering my numbers into Priceless BIAB calculator. It is going to take me a while to figure out the conversion efficiency formula but my numbers from my last batch were OK except it was a 90 minute mash. So now I get to play the dance of crush size against re-circulation.

The good news I think I'm tracking just about everything I need to. I'm using a simple Google Spreadsheet with a boatload of columns but even after 2 sessions I can start to see some consistency in some factors like boil off rate and gran absorption. I do like BeerSmith but it hasn't been helpful in collecting data that I need.
 
I poked around and finally found your notes on the topic after entering my numbers into Priceless BIAB calculator. It is going to take me a while to figure out the conversion efficiency formula but my numbers from my last batch were OK except it was a 90 minute mash. So now I get to play the dance of crush size against re-circulation.

The good news I think I'm tracking just about everything I need to. I'm using a simple Google Spreadsheet with a boatload of columns but even after 2 sessions I can start to see some consistency in some factors like boil off rate and gran absorption. I do like BeerSmith but it hasn't been helpful in collecting data that I need.

Priceless does calculations pretty much the same way that I do, because Priceless cribbed from my mash/sparge analysis spreadsheet. That's why I get a credit on the bottom of his calculator page.

Brew on :mug:
 
If average grain absorbtion is 0.08g/lb how can this be calculated with BIAB when I squeeze the hell out of the bag/grain? Priceless says 0.06 but ...Can I measure the weight of the grain after squeezing and take the difference with the dry grain weight and that would be the weight of water absorbed?
 
If average grain absorbtion is 0.08g/lb how can this be calculated with BIAB when I squeeze the hell out of the bag/grain? Priceless says 0.06 but ...Can I measure the weight of the grain after squeezing and take the difference with the dry grain weight and that would be the weight of water absorbed?

Yes, you can measure the weight of the grain before and after. Actually, that's probably an easy way to do it since you should already know the weight of the grain before. I'm going to try this next time.

Or you can measure the volume of water before and after the mash to determine how much water was lost.
 
Yes, you can measure the weight of the grain before and after. Actually, that's probably an easy way to do it since you should already know the weight of the grain before. I'm going to try this next time.

Or you can measure the volume of water before and after the mash to determine how much water was lost.

It usually takes me a good 15mins to squeeze so weighing may be easier than remembering to check the volume...my memory is the worst.
 
If average grain absorbtion is 0.08g/lb how can this be calculated with BIAB when I squeeze the hell out of the bag/grain? Priceless says 0.06 but ...Can I measure the weight of the grain after squeezing and take the difference with the dry grain weight and that would be the weight of water absorbed?

Don't forget, your grain is losing weight as the starches and enzymes do their thing to turn the water into wort. The math would not be as straight forward as weighing before and after. If you were to take the grain form the mash, dry it, and then weigh it again, it would actually weigh less than before the mash.

Also, when converting from pounds to gallons, you must remember the density of the fluid absorbed is not that of water because it is really wort! And it's hot as well, which also impacts the density.

My two cents, just remember to measure your volume before and after. It's much, much simpler.
 
Conversely the volume of water increases from the grain extract (sugars), so the apparent absorption is calculated with before and after volume measurements of the mash. You gain and lose volume all at the same time. :hs:
 
Don't forget, your grain is losing weight as the starches and enzymes do their thing to turn the water into wort. The math would not be as straight forward as weighing before and after. If you were to take the grain form the mash, dry it, and then weigh it again, it would actually weigh less than before the mash.

Also, when converting from pounds to gallons, you must remember the density of the fluid absorbed is not that of water because it is really wort! And it's hot as well, which also impacts the density.

My two cents, just remember to measure your volume before and after. It's much, much simpler.

I stand corrected. very good points :mug:
 
I always thought this was pretty small, no?

Negligible? I know you and priceless like to carry 3 or 4 figures right the decimal point :)

Is your kettle half full or half empty?:)

1 kg of grain will give you about 800g of extract (That comes from the 80% fine grind extract Kia mentions). That 800g will contribute about 500ml of extra volume.
 
Don't forget, your grain is losing weight as the starches and enzymes do their thing to turn the water into wort. The math would not be as straight forward as weighing before and after. If you were to take the grain form the mash, dry it, and then weigh it again, it would actually weigh less than before the mash.

Also, when converting from pounds to gallons, you must remember the density of the fluid absorbed is not that of water because it is really wort! And it's hot as well, which also impacts the density.

My two cents, just remember to measure your volume before and after. It's much, much simpler.

Conversely the volume of water increases from the grain extract (sugars), so the apparent absorption is calculated with before and after volume measurements of the mash. You gain and lose volume all at the same time. :hs:

Both correct.

You can calculate absolute grain absorption, but it isn't of much practical use. Apparent absorption is the one you need to know if you want to calculate volume of brewing water required.

I always thought this was pretty small, no?

Negligible? I know you and priceless like to carry 3 or 4 figures right the decimal point :)

It is significant.

Is your kettle half full or half empty?:)

1 kg of grain will give you about 800g of extract (That comes from the 80% fine grind extract Kia mentions). That 800g will contribute about 500ml of extra volume.

Sounds about right.

If anyone is interested, I can show you the detailed math.

Brew on :mug:
 
If average grain absorbtion is 0.08g/lb how can this be calculated with BIAB when I squeeze the hell out of the bag/grain? Priceless says 0.06 but ...Can I measure the weight of the grain after squeezing and take the difference with the dry grain weight and that would be the weight of water absorbed?

I've been measuring volume after each "step" and it has helped a bunch. A while back I bought a stainless steel ruler and I use that plus some match to calculate the volume. Hardest part is remembering to take the readings. FWIW I also take gravity readings at the same time. This helps with calculating the efficiency.

For me this all started because I was going back and forth from BeerSmith and the Priceless calculator having to use different scales for each. Now I have a spreadsheet that calculates both based on entered volume and grain weight. I even added a column to let me know when the calculations are off.

I'm measuring after the grain is finished dripping, then I measure after my squeeze. The result is my estimates are pretty accurate up to boil. This helped me finally pinpoint a problem with my loss estimates for trub and chiller.
 
Now I have a spreadsheet that calculates both based on entered volume and grain weight. I even added a column to let me know when the calculations are off.
I know it's not trivial to learn to use, but you really ought to spend the time trying to to learn how to use the BIABacus, as others have suggested. As MadScientist posted, you'll get all the help you need over at the http://www.biabrewer.info/ forums. It's easiest to figure out by looking at a completed spreadsheet, such as the current version in BIABacus PR1.3T - American Pale Ale - NRB's All Amarillo APA - Batch A0.xls. [I didn't provide a link because you must be registered to have access.]

I have owned Beersmith for years and never used it to brew because I have been using the BIABacus successfully with extremely accurate results for years. I routinely get >80% mash efficiency using full volume BIAB.

Regardless how you proceed, keep on BIABing! I never intend to do anything else, although I'm in the process of moving from propane to induction electric.
 
I know it's not trivial to learn to use, but you really ought to spend the time trying to to learn how to use the BIABacus, as others have suggested. As MadScientist posted, you'll get all the help you need over at the http://www.biabrewer.info/ forums. It's easiest to figure out by looking at a completed spreadsheet, such as the current version in BIABacus PR1.3T - American Pale Ale - NRB's All Amarillo APA - Batch A0.xls. [I didn't provide a link because you must be registered to have access.]

I have owned Beersmith for years and never used it to brew because I have been using the BIABacus successfully with extremely accurate results for years. I routinely get >80% mash efficiency using full volume BIAB.

Regardless how you proceed, keep on BIABing! I never intend to do anything else, although I'm in the process of moving from propane to induction electric.

The biggest obstacle with the BIABacus is I can't get it to work well in the cloud. I've tried a few times and it is too hard to view. I do have Excel from a deal at work but that means I have to use my desktop. I just need to put in some time with it.
 
The biggest obstacle with the BIABacus is I can't get it to work well in the cloud. I've tried a few times and it is too hard to view. I do have Excel from a deal at work but that means I have to use my desktop. I just need to put in some time with it.

That's one of the big reasons I didn't use it as well. Also, I wanted a one stop shop tool that would house recipes, brewing history, etc. The only way to do that with an Excel spreadsheet is to have your own filling system. I didn't want the hassle.
 
That's one of the big reasons I didn't use it as well. Also, I wanted a one stop shop tool that would house recipes, brewing history, etc. The only way to do that with an Excel spreadsheet is to have your own filling system. I didn't want the hassle.

What do you use? :mug:
 
Brewer's Friend

Funny story... I have been on the brewers website several times over the last year...but JUST found the location of all the features. I always thought there was only the paid version...I am testing the free area next brew day :mug:
 
Funny story... I have been on the brewers website several times over the last year...but JUST found the location of all the features. I always thought there was only the paid version...I am testing the free area next brew day :mug:

I have been using Brewer's Friend for the past couple of months, and I like that it's easy to use and provides a convenient way to catalog all your recipes. I just paid $15 for a subscription a few days ago.

On the other hand, I'm starting to question the accuracy of its calculations.

See:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7756674&postcount=14
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7757780&postcount=18
 
I have been using Brewer's Friend for the past couple of months, and I like that it's easy to use and provides a convenient way to catalog all your recipes. I just paid $15 for a subscription a few days ago.

On the other hand, I'm starting to question the accuracy of its calculations.

See:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7756674&postcount=14
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7757780&postcount=18

Noted, I will continue using the other calculators. Thanks!:mug:
 
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