Can Fusels Be Caused By Secondary Ferm?

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GHBWNY

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So, I brewed an AG nut brown back in June. It tasted great right out of primary, but after racking it onto some maple syrup in the secondary and after nearly 3 months in the bottle, it still has an objectionable alcohol-y taste. Could fusels have been produced in the secondary? Got good hot and cold breaks, didn't over-pitch, didn't let it sit on the trub and both primary and secondary ferm temps got no higher than 68F. Has a slight lingering sour aftertaste, too...
 
They could have been produced while on the maple syrup. Simple sugars, which I think maple syrup consists of, can cause a cider taste if they are fermented in larger quantities. Did you use a good quality Maple syrup? Could you have picked up a bug in the process there?
 
There is a chance. When you racked onto to syrup, what temp did you keep it at? Fusels usually come from fermenting too hot. If it was hot while the syrup was fermenting out, and you did get fusels, then there is not a lot you can do about it. Fusels do not age out.

Edit: I just noticed that you kept it below 68, so that is probably not the problem. Possibly a slight infection.

When I first started brewing I listened to some (bad) advice that Belgian yeasts like itnhot. I fermented a Belgian dark way too hot. Terrible fusels. I still have some bottles of it around and even 5+. years later the fusels are still there. I just have been using it for cooking.

Simple sugars, which I think maple syrup consists of, can cause a cider taste if they are fermented in larger quantities.
.

Not true. simple sugars do not cause a cider taste. That is an old myth that has been disproven. If it was true many Belgian beers, which use as much as 20-25% sugar in the recipes would all taste like cider. I routinely make tripels that use 20% plain table sugar and they do not taste like cider.
 
Theres a chance other things were masking those when you tasted it after primary and when it cleaned up in secondary they became more prominent.

What strain did you use?

Grain bill, etc.:

9 lb Pale Malt (2-Row)
1 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt
1 lb Flaked Oats
0.5 lb Victory Malt
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt

1 oz Fuggles @ 60
1 oz East Kent Goldings @ 15

1 Pkg Nottingham (Danstar #-)

Pretty straightforward, hit all my numbers. I used a quart of Grade B dark homegrown maple syrup from a friend ($15/qt!). Added 20 oz. to the boil, then 12 oz, @ secondary. I heated, but didn't boil the secondary addition. Didn't taste fusels at bottling, but they were so bad at the 2-week mark, I poured it down the drain. Ditto the next bottle at 4 weeks. It has since calmed down, but I want to try this recipe again, but don't want to end up with what I have now.

Anyone thinking it might have something to do with the maple syrup @ secondary? Should I have boiled the secondary addition? Used less? None at all? Other than the secondary addition, I can't think of anything else that would have caused it. Ferm temps were anything but hot (as per orig. post).
 
Hmmmm, I'm at a loss, I've used Nottingham a few times and never had an issue like this.

My preference is to lightly boil/simmer anything that will be going into the secondary but I can't really say if that is what is causing you issues. I've not used Maple in anything other then cider so I can't say for sure if that's the culprit.

For that style beer and what I see you did, I'm not quite sure. If you're at the 3 month mark I'd say be a bit more patient and let it age a little longer. Be a shame to see you dump it all if you just need a little more time.

Hopefully someone else here can help with some input though.
 
This is off topic but:

Not true. simple sugars do not cause a cider taste. That is an old myth that has been disproven. If it was true many Belgian beers, which use as much as 20-25% sugar in the recipes would all taste like cider. I routinely make tripels that use 20% plain table sugar and they do not taste like cider.

I'm interested in what research or articles you have to prove this? While I would admit there is just a likely chance that another factor such as low oxygen or nitrogen can cause a cidery taste the idea that it is simply not true that sucrose can can a cider off flavor in higher concentrations has never been proven a myth to me. I can point to the same anecdotal evidence of a tripel I brewed with a significant amount of table sugar scoring poorly do to a perceived cider character.

I would caution about assuming any traditional practice as being a myth simply due to our experience.
 
There is plenty of documentation out there.

From another thread here.

There is extensive documentation on the internet from fantastic brewers such as Jamil Zainasheff who have used amounts such as 3 lbs of regular cane sugar in a 6 gallon recipe that has placed in the second round of the National Homebrew Competition. I am not trying to be a Jamil fanboy, I am merely stating that you don't take home gold medals with beer that tastes "cidery" (Source: The Jamil Show, Belgian Golden Strong).

There is also the advantage of using simple sugars in high gravity fermentations in order to make them attenuate properly. In this case of extreme fermentations (I would estimate around the 1.100+ area) it is best to "step" your fermentations. For example, allow the yeast (don't forget that healthy pitch!) to consume the maltose-based sugars first and then when the gravity has dropped, start dosing with the simple sugars. The point of not adding all the fermentables at first is because it will overwhelm the yeast due to viscosity of the wort and because the yeast will choose to metabolise the simple sugars (glucose, sucrose, fructose) in preference over the maltose. These latter sugars (which come from the malts) will be left unfermented, resulting in cloying sweetness and a heavy body.
(Source: Sean Paxton's Dogfish Head 120 minute IPA clone recipe).

As mentioned, hoppy beers may benefit from simple sugar additions to dry out the malt backbone, leaving the hop characteristics (bitterness, flavor, and aroma) more pronounced. Again, you want to make sure of balance in the recipe (you still want malt!), but you don't want all those expensive hops covered up by residual sweetness or body that may not mesh well. Make the most of the hops during this time of record prices by getting your beer to ferment drier, leaving a pleasant hop tone to the beer.
(Source: 2008 Samuel Adams Longshot Winner: Mike McDole's Double IPA, aka Pliny the Elder clone).

Don't be duped: sugar has its place in beer by making it more digestible and easy drinking, when used with a solid and balanced recipe.

Also look at all of the recipes here...
http://www.candisyrup.com/recipes.html

They all use sugar and many of them use up to 3 lbs of sugar.

Or watch this Video. The first myth they talk about is sugar.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PyQOeZlAaNU&feature=player_embedded[/ame]


I do not have my copy of Brew Like a Monk in front of me, but the info is in there also. It even recommends just using either cane or beet sugar in recipes. In the book he mentions that many Belgian breweries just use plain sugar (beet or cane) in their recipes. Many Belgian recipes use as much as 20-25% sugar in them. The book even suggest a good simple recipe for a tripel as just 80% pils , 20% plain table sugar. No cider flavor.

My experience with using sugar is just not from one time. I brew mostly saisons and Belgians and have brewed probably close to 100 brews that have anywhere from 5% tp 30% sugar so my experience is not just anecdotal from a one time thing.

So yes there is plenty documentation about using sugar. I can dig up some more if you would like.

Drinking a tripel right now. 18% plain table sugar. Not a hint of cider flavor.

Now back to helping the OP figure out his problem.

GHBWNY, since you did not ferment the syrup too hot, my guess would be a possible infection.
 
GHBWNY, since you did not ferment the syrup too hot, my guess would be a possible infection.

Enjoyed the vid. Good point on the infection theory. I had wondered if the pure, unpasteurized, unboiled maple syrup in the secondary may have carried a bug with it from my friend's operation. First time use of it in any beer I've done and first-ever "fusel" effect I've had. If it is an infection, it's obviously too late to do anything about it except wait it out and see what it tastes like in a few months. It doesn't sound over-carbed when popping a cap and doesn't gush. The head is "coarse" with larger bubbles (compared to a tight, creamy head) and dissipates rapidly after the pour. Although that has also gotten a tiny bit better with age. It is not "boozy" like a tripel, etc., nor hot, just alcohol-y in a way that doesn't taste like normal palatable alcohol in a beer. I'm leaning toward an infection from the secondary addition, all to say, I will be boiling any secondary addition from now on.

Thanks for replies everyone! Very much appreciated.
 
Just to throw in a comment. I made a maple syrup dark ale earlier this year. The kit came with maple syrup. I bought an extra bottle identical to the one that came with the kit to carb it with for a little more maple flavor. I didn't boil the maple syrup used for priming, just straight out of the bottle. I had an infection that ruined the whole batch. It tasted good on bottling day. But after it sat in the bottles it was sour and almost gushed out. I've made two more batches of beer and two of wine since then, with the same equipment, with no problems. So it had to have been the unboiled maple syrup.

I'm thinking, not that I'm an expert, that you probably have an infection.
 
Just to throw in a comment. I made a maple syrup dark ale earlier this year. The kit came with maple syrup. I bought an extra bottle identical to the one that came with the kit to carb it with for a little more maple flavor. I didn't boil the maple syrup used for priming, just straight out of the bottle. I had an infection that ruined the whole batch. It tasted good on bottling day. But after it sat in the bottles it was sour and almost gushed out. I've made two more batches of beer and two of wine since then, with the same equipment, with no problems. So it had to have been the unboiled maple syrup.

I'm thinking, not that I'm an expert, that you probably have an infection.

I agree with what you're saying. At this point, having eliminated all other reasonable causes, a bug in the maple looks like the culprit. Don't know if it works this way, but I can only hope that over time it will have consumed whatever it is that causes it to dominate the flavor, and then die. Its influence must be weakening (or I'm becoming more tolerant?) because it is definitely a little better with each passing week. At least for now it has progressed beyond 'pour-down-the-drain' status, which is a step in the right direction.
 
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