Speedy Brett/Lacto beer technique (HELP!)

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ShareBrewing

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Got a plan for an upcoming Brett-fermented ale that I will portion off (after mash - unhopped) some of the wort into a carboy and sour with White Labs L. Brevis. The rest (perhaps 3-3.5 gal) will be fermented with Brett. I want to add a bit of tartness to the beer for complexly, as I plan on adding fruit and maybe oak as well. The idea is to brew a complex Brett-Lacto beer without waiting months at a time. That said, I plan on blending the Lacto soured wort (after being boiled) into the base beer as the Brett is still fermenting.

Thoughts? How long should I let the Lacto go if I want to get the soured wort as tart as possible before blending?

Will adding the soured wort too early in the primary reduce the acidity significantly? Brett is known to convert lactic acid to various ester compounds.

Here is my recipe. I brew 14 gal but experiment with each carboy (this only 5 of the 14 gal). Base beer is to be a Rye Kentucky Common.

OG 1.056. 10*L
IBU: 25.1 (13 gal base beer before blending)

17 lbs Pale ale malt 56%
7.5 # Flaked Maize 25%
2 #. Crystal 60 7%
2 #. Rye Malt 7%
1.5#. Flaked Rye 5%
0.5 #. Victory malt 2%

2 oz Cluster hop pellets (FWH -70 min calc) (16.5 IBU) *assuming 7.0%AA
1 oz Cluster. 30 min. 6.2 IBU
1 oz. Cluster. 10 min. 2.9 IBU

Carboy 1: control batch (WLP090 - Super San Diego)
Carboy 2: WLP090 + Hungarian oak cubes
Carboy 3: WLP644 B. Bruxellensis-Trois + WLP672 Lacto Brevis + Fruit

Has anyone used this technique of blending pre-boil soured wort with an active fermentation to introduce acidity?
 
IBUs might be a little high for the L. Brevis and 644 isn't actually a brett strain but it is great yeast.

5-10 IBU is what I shoot for when souring with lactobacillus.
 
First off, rushing a sour is a good way to make a terrible sour. It takes time for alot of those flavors to settle, risk of secondary fermentation and aging. First off you should look into kettle souring if you want to achieve a quick souring from the Lacto. Although total acidity is the best measurement to know when its where you want it, us home brewers have to rely on PH. Normally I'd wait until the PH drops to about 4-3 depending on your tastes, then you boil the wort killing any lacto off to prevent further souring, although it will only got as low as 3. Now the Brett part. It depends what strain of Brett your using as some are better as primary fermenters then others. Also once you add the Lacto wort into the Brett not only will that increase fermentation time but most likely cause a bit of a lag due to PH/gravity changes. Also as far as the timing when you add it, its up to you but usually Lacto is added prior to the brett to allow the brett time to break down some of the esters the Lacto would have created. So I'd say its a risk, it could be great or you could have a bunch of dumpable/blendable beer. Lastly on the fruit and oak. Oak can be really aggressive if you don't use it on something else prior so if you use it fresh you'll have to wait even longer for that super oaky flavor to go away. And with the fruit, just keep in mind that fermentation will kick up again once added which will lengthen the time. I usually go 2-4 months when adding any fruits to sours.
 
As stated, the Lacto portion won't be hopped. It will be drawn off once the mash is done and lautered. That's why the I have a note for 13 gal before blending (of the Lacto portion) next to the IBUs. Obviously the Lacto portion will be heated to neutralize the bacteria before being added to the main fermentation. I've done a few 15 gal overnight kettle sours in the past for batches of Berliner weisse using White Labs L. Brevis and Omega OYL-605. Each reached a pH of 3.68 and 3.50, respectively. Given those were only left overnight (~18 hours) after being force chilled to about 115F to promote optimal cell reproduction. The Omega Lacto is a blend is Brevis and Plantarum, which is a quite aggressive strain. It really should only be in contact 16-24 hours to achieve desired acidity if kettle souring.

Blurryface, how were the fermentation characteristics of the WLP644 (Speed, flavors, flocculation, optimal fermentation length)?

Thanks for the heads up on 644 not being a Brett culture. It's odd, because the 35mL vial holds an amount of yeast that is only slightly more than what comes in their Brett vials (2-3 billion cells). It's nowhere near the amount that comes in their standard Sacch vials.

Jamaral, you'll notice I put oak cubes, not a barrel. Only in a barrel does it need to be used repeatedly to lessen the oak character. Most homebrewers boil their oak cubes for sterilization and to lessen the extract of many of the harsher tannins in the wood. I prefer to boil mine for 20-30 minutes in order to render them similar to that of a well-used barrel, imparting only subtle, complimentary tones. This also reduces the amounts of available cellobiose (a wood sugar) available to the Brett and other microbes. Brett and some other bacterium (like Lacto) produce an enzyme called beta-glycosidase which can break down these long-chain wood sugars. But back to the point...

My real inquiry lies in what the effects will be once the Lacto portion is added. Both the main and Lacto portions will begin fermentation at the same time. I'll be using 1 L starters for all my microbes in these batches (2L for the WLP090). Given that the yeast will have a several day head start before the Lacto part is added to it, wouldn't it able to take the drop in pH? Being added at high krausen, wouldn't this be more of a feeding for the yeast? Shouldn't it only boost cell growth and activity? Sacch and Brett both benefit from a slightly more acidic environment (about pH 3.7-4), Brett even prefers a lower pH of 3.2-3.7 and can still carry out a healthy fermentation. If this strain is Sacch though, how would it react?
 
I didn't mean to say it wouldn't keep going, just the sudden change of environment will cause most Sacc/Bug strains to lag. Good call on boiling the cubes, I did the same when using spirals. So given your doing the kettling souring as mention and your doing a Brett only fermentation I would assume you would just see a lag for a small amount of time when you mix them but should be fine. Brett is a tough little bastard after all. With the activity, it would def be more food for the Brett. With Sacc I'm not 100% sure but I would assume it would be very similar as modern Sacc strains are pretty resistant to anything Lacto can throw at it. May already be aware of this as well but when mixing them just make sure to purge the Brett beer headspace with c02 if you have a c02 tank, mix then blanket another layer ontop before re-capping.
 
Bootleg Biology has also been talking about a fast working Pedio strain as well. If thats something you want to try to fool around with. Always a good addition if using Brett imo.
 
Blurryface, how were the fermentation characteristics of the WLP644 (Speed, flavors, flocculation, optimal fermentation length)?

Thanks for the heads up on 644 not being a Brett culture. It's odd, because the 35mL vial holds an amount of yeast that is only slightly more than what comes in their Brett vials (2-3 billion cells). It's nowhere near the amount that comes in their standard Sacch vials.

I have found that it behaves the same as any other saccharomyces strain. I've heard that it is capable of creating a pellicile but have not seen it. Have it fermenting in a pale ale now and it will probably be done in 7 days. I ferment at 72-75 and get more fruit esters from this strain than any other. Flocculation is medium, I don't cold crash so it takes a bit to clear.

White labs still packages it like brett which is why I've switched imperial organic A20 Juicy when I need fresh yeast. Cost is more but no starter needed.
 
Your approach should work fine. The lacto portion will be sour but still have sugars for the wlp644 to eat up. If you're worried about a quick drop in pH titrate it in slowly keeping an eye on pH. Let us know how it turns out.
 
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