Hefe Yeast Options-Calling All Hefe Specialists!

I have been making Hefes off the same yeast strain (WLP300) for several generations now. My success rate is great and the beers are really quite nice. However, I want to develop a bit more flavor intensity than I am getting now. I have tried 62F, 65F, 68F and 72F and honesty I am struggling to tell the difference. I also tried to pitch low to stress the yeast, but again, my results are so similar I struggle to tell them apart.

I am not looking for banana or clove bombs per se, but maybe to spice up the profile some with a different yeast that throws more esters and phenolic notes...maybe even attenuating a bit less to leave me a hint of sweetness.

Am I asking for too much or is there a yeast out there Hefe specialists can suggest for my next brew? Thanks!

I'm no hefe specialist, but the next time I make one, I am going to try a ferulic acid rest.

http://allaboutbeer.com/quirks-of-brewing-ferulic-acid-rest/

Definitely try a ferulic rest if you equipment is capable of it. This step creates a lot fo compounds that hefe, and some belgian, yeasts turn into those characteristic esters/phenols

Horseflesh said:

I'm no hefe specialist, but the next time I make one, I am going to try a ferulic acid rest.

http://allaboutbeer.com/quirks-of-brewing-ferulic-acid-rest/

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m00ps said:

Definitely try a ferulic rest if you equipment is capable of it. This step creates a lot fo compounds that hefe, and some belgian, yeasts turn into those characteristic esters/phenols

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Very interesting. POF...Phenolic Off Flavors quoted for the linked article. Thanks!

m00ps said:

Definitely try a ferulic rest if you equipment is capable of it. This step creates a lot fo compounds that hefe, and some belgian, yeasts turn into those characteristic esters/phenols

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m00ps you have been a great resource on other unrelated topics. Once again, I find myself asking your advice.

My setup is BIAB, and I have always done single mash infusions. If I want to try this ferulic rest between 104 and 122, would I simply mash in at that range, rest for XX minutes, then slowly fire up the propane bringing to 148 for XX minutes? I guess I'm asking for advice about multi-step mashing with BIAB if this is what I'll need to do?

One POSITIVE thing is I have a steel mesh BIAB basket built by Arbor Fab which can take the heat of direct fire while I continually stir the mash to bring up the temps. The mesh basket holds the grain bed off the bottom of the kettle to prevent scorching as a second benefit.

Can this work? How would I go about this?

I've been struggling with my hefes too, however I biab. Is it even possible to step mash in biab? I guess I could do it the normal way by adding boiling water if I wouldn't need a ton

Morrey said:

m00ps you have been a great resource on other unrelated topics. Once again, I find myself asking your advice.



My setup is BIAB, and I have always done single mash infusions. If I want to try this ferulic rest between 104 and 122, would I simply mash in at that range, rest for XX minutes, then slowly fire up the propane bringing to 148 for XX minutes? I guess I'm asking for advice about multi-step mashing with BIAB if this is what I'll need to do?



One POSITIVE thing is I have a steel mesh BIAB basket built by Arbor Fab which can take the heat of direct fire while I continually stir the mash to bring up the temps. The mesh basket holds the grain bed off the bottom of the kettle to prevent scorching as a second benefit.



Can this work? How would I go about this?

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Looks like we have the same question. Sadly I'm stuck with a bag though

ThatVideoKid said:

Looks like we have the same question. Sadly I'm stuck with a bag though

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I am not sure if you are stuck with the bag in BIAB as I also have Wilser bags and they never scorch with heat. I use Wilser hop bags with a spider and they always end up touching the kettle bottom during full boil. These bags are tough!

Morrey said:

I am not sure if you are stuck with the bag in BIAB as I also have Wilser bags and they never scorch with heat. I use Wilser hop bags with a spider and they always end up touching the kettle bottom during full boil. These bags are tough!

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I have a new pulley system too, so maybe I can raise the bag up a few inches and crank up the heat. If I only need a couple gallons of boiling though to adjust temp I might do that

I have successfully done a BIAB step mash, but I needed two vessels to do it. I was brewing a wit and wanted to do a protein rest at about 125. For the protein rest, I heated my strike water on the stove in my kettle, then when it hit my target I transferred enough into a mash tun cooler below to do the protein rest at about a 1 qt/lb ratio. I used this calculator to determine how hot I needed to get the rest of my water in order to transfer it to the cooler for the sacc. rest: http://lakehouse.altervista.org/stepmash.html

When the protein rest was done, I transferred the rest of my water at the specified temp into the mash tun cooler and nailed my target temperature for a full volume mash.

It's not as easy as single vessel BIAB, but it wasn't that hard and with that calculator my temps were perfect. I used the bag in the cooler, and removed the bag after the sacc. rest (no sparge), and transferred the wort back into the kettle for the boil.

I just finished reading an in-depth experiment reported by Brulosophy in that they made a single infusion beer and an identical step infusion beer of the same recipe, yeasts, etc.

They specifically addressed Hefeweisen as being a beer that may be influenced by a step mash which includes the rest we are all discussing in this thread which could enhance the desired phenols.

In so many words, they said it was virtually a toss up among 126 tasters in a blind test as to which of the beers was better. In conclusion: It is probably not worth the time and effort to multi-step mash. Of course this is just an opinion, but seems like a valid point.

For what it's worth Seibel recommends an acid rest for Heffe's. My buddy just finished the master brewer class.

Dcpcooks said:

For what it's worth Seibel recommends an acid rest for Heffe's. My buddy just finished the master brewer class.

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I don't see how trying this could hurt anything. If the big boys in Germany do it that way, I'm sure they know more about it than I do for sure.

The biggest secret to great hefeweizen is to treat the yeast like ****. Use WLP300 or WLP380, and just pitch the vial without making a starter. Keep fermentation temperature in the 60s F for more clove, or approach 70 F for more banana, and into the 70s for bubblegum.

Nothing else matters as far as I can tell. The yeast selection is the big thing, and don't make a starter, or make a really really tiny starter. Nothing else.

dmtaylor said:

The biggest secret to great hefeweizen is to treat the yeast like ****.

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This has to be some of my favorite advice I have seen in a while. I do agree on the WLP300 or wyeast 3068 as a great yeast choice.

dmtaylor said:

The biggest secret to great hefeweizen is to treat the yeast like ****. Use WLP300 or WLP380, and just pitch the vial without making a starter. Keep fermentation temperature in the 60s F for more clove, or approach 70 F for more banana, and into the 70s for bubblegum.

Nothing else matters as far as I can tell. The yeast selection is the big thing, and don't make a starter, or make a really really tiny starter. Nothing else.

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Until I started doing this a few years ago I couldn't get close to the flavor profiles of the big guys. Tried the acid rest, step mash, ferment warm, everything I could think of. Now I under pitch and it sounds out great.

I BIAB and I step mash when doing hefe's. It's very easy to raise temps with direct heat, you just have to stir the entire time you are applying heat. Lately my mash schedule looks like this;

• Ferulic Acid Rest - 20min @ 112F
• Beta-Amylase Rest - 30min @ 142F
• Alpha-Amylase Rest - 30min @ 156F

I don't bother with a mash out with BIAB since you're removing the grains and raising temp immediately anyway, but it might be a good idea on a 3 vessel. I've been using Wyeast 3068, pitch at 66F and let it free rise to whatever it wants. I'm getting satisfactory amounts of clove and banana, the wife and friends are big fans, but I feel I could use a touch more banana. Standard 3068 yeast rules apply, under pitch, treat it like junk.

Now that being said a member of my local brew club recently went pro, his first commercial beer is his hefe. He told me that he is doing a 5 step mash on that thing. He is doing an acid, protein, beta, alpha rest and a mash out. He's just doing a simple pilsner / wheat grist and hallertau to 12 IBU's. He's getting a ton of clove and banana out of that beer using 3068. He is using commercial equipment, but he says he ferments at 66F and its packaged after 3 days, crazy stuff.

The last time I made a hefe... and the first time I made a GOOD hefe... I used 3068 with no starter and maintained it at 66F. It was really big on banana but had almost no clove, which is why I want to try the ferulic acid rest next time. (The base recipe was @EdWort's hefe.)

5 step mash, wow. Glad I am moving to EBIAB, I can try some crazy things like that more easily.

TheHopfather said:

I BIAB and I step mash when doing hefe's. It's very easy to raise temps with direct heat, you just have to stir the entire time you are applying heat. Lately my mash schedule looks like this;

• Ferulic Acid Rest - 20min @ 112F
• Beta-Amylase Rest - 30min @ 142F
• Alpha-Amylase Rest - 30min @ 156F

I don't bother with a mash out with BIAB since you're removing the grains and raising temp immediately anyway, but it might be a good idea on a 3 vessel. I've been using Wyeast 3068, pitch at 66F and let it free rise to whatever it wants. I'm getting satisfactory amounts of clove and banana, the wife and friends are big fans, but I feel I could use a touch more banana. Standard 3068 yeast rules apply, under pitch, treat it like junk.

Now that being said a member of my local brew club recently went pro, his first commercial beer is his hefe. He told me that he is doing a 5 step mash on that thing. He is doing an acid, protein, beta, alpha rest and a mash out. He's just doing a simple pilsner / wheat grist and hallertau to 12 IBU's. He's getting a ton of clove and banana out of that beer using 3068. He is using commercial equipment, but he says he ferments at 66F and its packaged after 3 days, crazy stuff.

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BIAB Would I be correct in: Dough in at say 116F allowing to drop to 112F, insulate kettle, set timer for 20 minutes. Fire propane, stir constantly allowing to reach 142F, flameout, wrap kettle, timer 30 min. Fire flame, stir, hit 156, flameout 30 min, pull bag. Time bringing mash from one step to the next does not count as time at each step...correct? So that is 80 minutes of mash PLUS time bringing to each step?

Boil time. 60 minute ok with my typical 60/40 wheat/2 row ratio?

Morrey said:

BIAB Would I be correct in: Dough in at say 116F allowing to drop to 112F, insulate kettle, set timer for 20 minutes. Fire propane, stir constantly allowing to reach 142F, flameout, wrap kettle, timer 30 min. Fire flame, stir, hit 156, flameout 30 min, pull bag. Time bringing mash from one step to the next does not count as time at each step...correct? So that is 80 minutes of mash PLUS time bringing to each step?

Boil time. 60 minute ok with my typical 60/40 wheat/2 row ratio?

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That is correct, that's how I do it. The ramp times are pretty quick, step mashes extend the brew day a bit but I enjoy them. Makes brewing a boring old hefe a bit more interesting. Mashing is the only thing I do differently with a hefe, boil is the same. Your grist looks like a traditional hefe, should be fine.

I've been doing a bit more reading and I was thinking about changing the timing of my schedule up a bit, rather than 20/30/30 for steps I was thinking of doing 30/30/20 as I've read that conversion happens slower at lower temps. Either way give it a shot, see if it helps.

TheHopfather said:

That is correct, that's how I do it. The ramp times are pretty quick, step mashes extend the brew day a bit but I enjoy them. Makes brewing a boring old hefe a bit more interesting. Mashing is the only thing I do differently with a hefe, boil is the same. Your grist looks like a traditional hefe, should be fine.

I've been doing a bit more reading and I was thinking about changing the timing of my schedule up a bit, rather than 20/30/30 for steps I was thinking of doing 30/30/20 as I've read that conversion happens slower at lower temps. Either way give it a shot, see if it helps.

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I am just learning nuisances of step mashing, but it sounds like 30-30-20 may be our best schedule. If iodine testing is accurate (debatable), I have seen light malt grain bills complete single infusion conversion at 150 in 20 minutes. If this is in fact accurate, should we try 30-30-20 and try that out?

Even though I get great beers, I feel as if I am way overpitching these Hefe's. I know, I know, I have been "babying" the yeast and it has had it too easy. I think I'll do this step schedule and pitch straight from the smack pack (3068) and see if I can flavor up this bad boy some.

Morrey said:

I am just learning nuisances of step mashing, but it sounds like 30-30-20 may be our best schedule. If iodine testing is accurate (debatable), I have seen light malt grain bills complete single infusion conversion at 150 in 20 minutes. If this is in fact accurate, should we try 30-30-20 and try that out?

Even though I get great beers, I feel as if I am way overpitching these Hefe's. I know, I know, I have been "babying" the yeast and it has had it too easy. I think I'll do this step schedule and pitch straight from the smack pack (3068) and see if I can flavor up this bad boy some.

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I frequently pitch only one pack of 3068 into 10 gallons, assuming it's fresh. it can be hit or miss at the lhbs. Occasionally I'll get an old one and make a small starter to keep the under pitch right.

Just saying, you're not underpitching that much unless you mentioned a large batch in a previous post.

Morrey said:

I have been making Hefes off the same yeast strain (WLP300) for several generations now. My success rate is great and the beers are really quite nice. However, I want to develop a bit more flavor intensity than I am getting now. I have tried 62F, 65F, 68F and 72F and honesty I am struggling to tell the difference. I also tried to pitch low to stress the yeast, but again, my results are so similar I struggle to tell them apart.

I am not looking for banana or clove bombs per se, but maybe to spice up the profile some with a different yeast that throws more esters and phenolic notes...maybe even attenuating a bit less to leave me a hint of sweetness.

Am I asking for too much or is there a yeast out there Hefe specialists can suggest for my next brew? Thanks!

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If you want to add some complexity, try blending with a Belgian yeast like WY3787 or WY1214 or their White Labs equivalent. Belgian yeasts share many similarities with hefe yeasts, and are known for their complex ester profiles. You can try pitching at the same time, or start with 1 yeast and finish with another.

It's not readily available, but the White Labs WLP611 New Nordic Yeast from their Yeast Vault series makes a fantastic Hefe!
You'll have to be patient waiting for it though.

Double_D said:

I frequently pitch only one pack of 3068 into 10 gallons, assuming it's fresh. it can be hit or miss at the lhbs. Occasionally I'll get an old one and make a small starter to keep the under pitch right.

Just saying, you're not underpitching that much unless you mentioned a large batch in a previous post.

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True, I plan to try 3068 next brew date and simply pitch direct and don't worry with a starter. I also think I'll quit with the saved slurry on these Hefe's if the direct pitch works out ok. It costs a bit more in the end, but I'd rather have an outstanding beer instead of pinching a few pennies and wishing I hadn't.

Morrey said:

True, I plan to try 3068 next brew date and simply pitch direct and don't worry with a starter. I also think I'll quit with the saved slurry on these Hefe's if the direct pitch works out ok. It costs a bit more in the end, but I'd rather have an outstanding beer instead of pinching a few pennies and wishing I hadn't.

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FWIW, I've noticed no matter how carefully I harvest yeast the next batch of hefe it doesn't perform the same during fermentation. The flavor isn't as strong and krausen not as tall. Have you had similar results? I know you'll be fine with the direct pitch.

Double_D said:

FWIW, I've noticed no matter how carefully I harvest yeast the next batch of hefe it doesn't perform the same during fermentation. The flavor isn't as strong and krausen not as tall. Have you had similar results? I know you'll be fine with the direct pitch.

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I had a professional brewer tell me he thought a Hefe was among the trickiest beers of all to perfect.

I have tried to harvest and I think Hefe is one of those beers that the "correct" pitch rate is key. My question is.....what is "correct"? I'll try direct pitch from one vial (no starter) and see how this goes. I darn well hope this is an under pitch and the yeast gets all stressed out and works magic!!!

I love hefe - and brew this style the most. I was interested to read in that article about schneider that the ferulic acid comes from the 2 row and not the wheat. May want to consider that as part of your recipe as well.

Morrey said:

I had a professional brewer tell me he thought a Hefe was among the trickiest beers of all to perfect.

I have tried to harvest and I think Hefe is one of those beers that the "correct" pitch rate is key. My question is.....what is "correct"?

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True! Best I've been able to figure for a good pitch rate is to use mrmalty.com and then use about 10% as much as he says. Go extreme, very extreme. I need to experiment with this some more myself. But I do know that my friends who use 100% of mrmalty.com's recommendations end up with a super bland low flavor hefe that accentuates the banana very slightly and then after a couple of weeks the banana is gone. No clove to speak of at all when you pitch too much yeast.

dmtaylor said:

True! Best I've been able to figure for a good pitch rate is to use mrmalty.com and then use about 10% as much as he says. Go extreme, very extreme. I need to experiment with this some more myself. But I do know that my friends who use 100% of mrmalty.com's recommendations end up with a super bland low flavor hefe that accentuates the banana very slightly and then after a couple of weeks the banana is gone. No clove to speak of at all when you pitch too much yeast.

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The way you describe the Hefe, Dave, is the way I'd describe mine. Nothing offensive about its taste, but basically nothing to write home about.

So, if ferulic acid is important... Maybe you can just add some to the wort.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0161K9QMA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I have no idea if the material in the link above is the right form of the compound, or how much you need.

I like doing things traditionally, but I also like breaking with tradition if it's interesting!

Horseflesh said:

So, if ferulic acid is important... Maybe you can just add some to the wort.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0161K9QMA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I have no idea if the material in the link above is the right form of the compound, or how much you need.

I like doing things traditionally, but I also like breaking with tradition if it's interesting!

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I'm very skeptical. I wonder if ferulic acid actually does anything at all. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

This reminds me of the guy who made a Berliner weisse by adding a lot of powdered lactic acid to his beer. Was it sour? Sure. Did it taste like a true weisse from Berlin? Hell no.

We already feed yeast vitamins and other nutrients. If ferulic acid is consumed by yeast, and that is what gets them to produce the clove notes, in principle adding a supplement should work just as well.

The reality may be more complicated, of course. Maybe a ferulic acid rest produces 100 similar compounds, not just one. Maybe it's all just BS. It would be an interesting experiment, though.

singybrue said:

It's not readily available, but the White Labs WLP611 New Nordic Yeast from their Yeast Vault series makes a fantastic Hefe!
You'll have to be patient waiting for it though.

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I'm waiting patiently for my Torulaspora delbrueckii, which is the wild yeast used in the Nordic yeast blend. Been stuck at 110 orders before shipping for a while now.

TheHopfather said:

...
Now that being said a member of my local brew club recently went pro, his first commercial beer is his hefe. He told me that he is doing a 5 step mash on that thing. He is doing an acid, protein, beta, alpha rest and a mash out. He's just doing a simple pilsner / wheat grist and hallertau to 12 IBU's. He's getting a ton of clove and banana out of that beer using 3068. He is using commercial equipment, but he says he ferments at 66F and its packaged after 3 days, crazy stuff.

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I've been using 3068 for a while now for Dunkelweizens and Roggenbiers. I build a 1.5 liter starter, then cold-crash and archive most of it to feed the next starter. I've been slowly working toward more significant underpitching.

First couple were extract, since then BIAB. I don't even want to contemplate a 5-step mash - for me that would thoroughly violate the first R. (Relax, RDWHAHB)

Most recently, last saturday (61 hours ago) I pitched 60%-70% the recommended yeast into a Roggen/Dunkel mashup. (1/3 barley, 1/3 wheat, 1/3 rye) O.G. 1.052, just checked the gravity at the 60 hour mark (pitched 2am saturday night/sunday morning) and it's down to 1.012. Fermenter in 66-68F ambient (warmer than I wanted but it's mid-90s weather here and a houseguest complained about my mid-60s indoor temps) it free-rose to 6 degrees over ambient by hour 12 [accompanied by a huge burst of brimstone], down to 1 degree over ambient by hour 36.

For logistical reasons I won't be bottling until this Saturday, but I can absolutely see where it could be bottled on the third day. (I would definitely go light on bottling sugars though, maybe 'target' 2.3-2.5 atm and expect it would end higher) Crazy stuff indeed.

j

I started this post looking for ways to improve my Hefe brewing. This is likely among my favorite styles and I look to continually improve upon my skills. Two things I feel are critical are temp control and yeast control. My next Hefe I am going to try a direct pitch (no starter) of WY3068 and a temp of 66F. I'll see what this plan yields me.

BUT, please don't take this as bragging since I am a rather non-assuming guy. I went to a local beer store where they let you select individual beers to make your own unique six pack. I selected all Hefe's inc one made by UFO here in the US, with the balance made up of well known imported brands. My wife and I did a blind taste test including our "OWN" Hefe which I want to improve upon. Well darn, OUR Hefe won hands down the test. I'm sure we are used to our own flavor profiles including freshness, but heck, I am chasing a better beer when I got the better beer already. Sorry to brag, just saying I should be more satisfied and enjoy instead of always trying to "one up" my own self. Always striving for perfection.

Morrey said:

I went to a local beer store where they let you select individual beers to make your own unique six pack. I selected all Hefe's inc one made by UFO here in the US, with the balance made up of well known imported brands. My wife and I did a blind taste test including our "OWN" Hefe which I want to improve upon. Well darn, OUR Hefe won hands down the test. I'm sure we are used to our own flavor profiles including freshness, but heck, I am chasing a better beer when I got the better beer already. Sorry to brag, just saying I should be more satisfied and enjoy instead of always trying to "one up" my own self. Always striving for perfection.

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This does not surprise me at all. Freshness means a lot, especially when it comes to hefeweizen. The lovely clove and banana flavors fade with age very quickly in a matter of weeks. Several months later and these flavors are pretty much gone.

I liked my last hefe (which was EdWort's recipe) better than my favorite store-bought versions also. When I did a side by side tasting I was surprised by how different they really were.

Ayinger/Weihenstephaner hefe are very similar and both have a malty finish. They're also a bit darker than I always remember.

I don't know if it's EdWort's recipe or my brewing, but I found that malty aftertaste totally absent in my brew, and the color was also lighter. Overall, it was crisper, I guess I would say. Turns out I like my hefes better that way, whether it is authentic or not.

In other respects like banana presence, all 3 beers shared the important traits of the style.

dmtaylor said:

This does not surprise me at all. Freshness means a lot, especially when it comes to hefeweizen. The lovely clove and banana flavors fade with age very quickly in a matter of weeks. Several months later and these flavors are pretty much gone.

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I agree, Dave. While freshness is not desirable in all beers, Hefe's seem to shine when young. Now that you said this, all the imported Hefe's seemed kind of dull in comparison while ours was fresh and vibrant.

Horseflesh said:

I liked my last hefe (which was EdWort's recipe) better than my favorite store-bought versions also. When I did a side by side tasting I was surprised by how different they really were.

Ayinger/Weihenstephaner hefe are very similar and both have a malty finish. They're also a bit darker than I always remember.

I don't know if it's EdWort's recipe or my brewing, but I found that malty aftertaste totally absent in my brew, and the color was also lighter. Overall, it was crisper, I guess I would say. Turns out I like my hefes better that way, whether it is authentic or not.

In other respects like banana presence, all 3 beers shared the important traits of the style.

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Another PLUS for the homebrewing craft. A very BIG PLUS I'll add!!

One last opinion requested......I want to try stressing my Hefe yeast to see what effect this will have on my beer. If I do an 11G batch next, will pitching one pack of WY3068 (no starter) be something that could possibly work? Many say to treat the yeast badly and it will make a better beer. One pack, no starter?