More fermentation temperature reproach

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applescrap

Be the ball!
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Dont mean to be reproach, but i think fermenting lager, helles, whatever in your basement/somewhere cool is fine. I will be brewing my first helles/lager something soon. Obviously using 34/70 or wlp 800. I hope to write an article someday and will be very critical in analyzing the small but sufficient data available. To me this process outlined below seems unnecessary. 7 pounds pilsner and a pinch of hops is going to taste like 7 pounds pilsner and a pinch of hops regardless of fermentation temperature. Furthermore, drinking it from ones keg, i believe, will be enjoyable and any slight nuance that questionably even exists, is essentially unimportant, especially in light of not having a baseline to compare to. What a mouthful, basically one will take a drink and overall see far more good than bad related to fermentation temp. Dont have time for full discourse now but consider 3 of 5 exbeeriments showed no significance, boom, right off bat. Ok sure 2 did, but in those 2 both testers vastly preferred the warm ferment sample. Both experimenters said the difference was seemingly very difficult to distinguish, and in one case the exact number of participants needed for difference statistically was exact and the other was + 1. The other 3 landslides. In the 1st experiment when told the vaiable the ones who got it right said the cold ferment was the warm one again with majority. These are some dudes in their garage doesnt fly with me. They have done to many experiments and i have with my own ears heard prominent hb personalities compliment them on the beer. Also they brew plenty, more than me and my friend put together. Sure i haven't tasted the samples but 100 or so others have and i have faith in them. Sure i havent brewed a lager, this isnt about me brewing a lager. Well it is actually just at 65+- fermentation temperature. Cheers :beer:



http://byo.com/mead/item/747-helles-style-profile
 
I'm going to try fermenting lager yeast at ale temperatures one day and see what happens. I know that very concept makes a vein in the forehead of the purists swell with anger, but I'm not a purist. Nor am I the guy who sits around with a panelist of homebrew judges who tip their pinkies up while sipping small quantities and bring notepads on each sample. Nay, my panelist consists of several of my friends sitting on my patio having 2 or 3 good cold beers while we grill some fresh redfish or tripletail I caught the day prior and talk about mountain bikes and/or boobs. I have little interest in anything about brewing other than what makes quality beer with the least amount of effort and to some extent cost. I've done some lagers but it seems to me what really influences the flavor of them most is time spent in the refrigerator. The longer they age the more mild and "lagery" the flavor becomes.
 
I honestly have a hard time reading that paragraph and trying to determine what you are attempting to say. If you are trying to say that fermentation temperature doesn't matter then I would have to disagree with you.

Ok sure, especially with known temperature reactive yeast strains. But consider that when one brews if they are like me, they brew one batch not two with different variables. Now lets just pretend i brewed 2 batches. One at 60 and one at 82, lager yeast. i cant really tell them apart, but can. Then i give them to 21 damn serious beer hb folk and 12 can tell a difference, but guess what 7 prefer warm in blind taste. You would say fermentation temperature matters and i would agree. But in basically brulosophy temperature ex. 5 above, i would push you to explain to me how much it really matters, in light of the fact that one usually doesn't brew 2 batches for comparison and that people preferred the warm fermented anyway. Non the less 82 deg. is ridiculously high for a lager. If its a situation where its barely discernible by 12 out of 21 people, what kind of brew importance are we really talking about here. I dont think in the kind most are using as basis for disagreement to this perceived radical concept. Consider that a very small amount of taco sauce is discenible. Or how about cinamon, think how little spice we use and i can guarantee more than 12 out of 21 will pick one with it over one without. People are reusing yeast dumping right in fermentor with no variation. In light of all this how much does one get to insult a guy who makes a lager at 65. Last thought, im buying a bulk bag of pilsner malt, and i buy hops in bulk, and if i reuse yeast i can brew 5 gallons of pilsner for like 10$, plus i like em.
Just sayin,
 
Pilsners are great summer beers. I like almost anything thats mild and yellow on a hot day. My only beef with them is that they take a long time to make since they're lagers. Between an extended fermentation at cold temperatures to storing them for at least a month before they get really good, it's time consuming. But if you could cut some of the time off the fermentation, that would really help.
 
I appreciate your posts jim thanks. I didn't age my founder's kbs clone modified, so im certain i wont be aging 8 pounds pilsner and 1oz of hops. I am always willing to consider reconsidering, but will need to brew it first.
 
Oh don't get me wrong, I almost always start drinking them immediately after they're carbonated up. I drink it while it lagers, I'm just saying that ultimately it just tastes a lot better after it's lagered for a while. If I had the cold storage space and was smart I'd brew up a double batch, or at least stay far enough ahead of my production timeline that I always had a few kegs of it lagered and ready to drink :)
 
I have done a lager at 65 degrees with 34/70 and had great results. Actually tasted cleaner than previous batches fermented at 50ish. My take on lagers and "lagering" on the homebrew scale comes down to the particulates that are falling out of suspension during that extended cold crash. The big guys filter their beers to a very high level. Yes this may filter out some "taste" however it may be some unwanted compounds that we are "tasting"... I'm betting that it would be possible to go grain to glass in 2 weeks or less using a lager strain of yeast given. The trick I believe would be to filter the beer to a very high level to remove unwanted compounds and particles/yeast that would otherwise fall out during "lagering".
 
I didn't read all the really long paragraphs but there is a style called California Common where you essentially make a lager and ferment it at ale temperatures. It might require a certain lager yeast that is good at higher temperatures. I did one based on Northern Brewer's California Common and another similar one based on JOHN Q. ADAMS MARBLEHEAD LAGER. Both used WY2112.

From NB: California Common was an accidental discovery: residents
of Gold Rush-era San Francisco wanted to drink
Pilsner but local brewers had to make do with primitive
refrigeration techniques. The result was a hybrid style —
a highly hopped, pale lager fermented at ale temperatures,
and possibly America’s first original contribution
to the beer world. Our version exhibits earthy hop bitterness
and aroma, caramel malt, and a pale copper color
with a clean, crisp profile.
 
Oh don't get me wrong, I almost always start drinking them immediately after they're carbonated up. I drink it while it lagers, I'm just saying that ultimately it just tastes a lot better after it's lagered for a while. If I had the cold storage space and was smart I'd brew up a double batch, or at least stay far enough ahead of my production timeline that I always had a few kegs of it lagered and ready to drink :)

Me too on all accounts. I need a pipeline too.
 
I didn't read all the really long paragraphs but there is a style called California Common where you essentially make a lager and ferment it at ale temperatures. It might require a certain lager yeast that is good at higher temperatures. I did one based on Northern Brewer's California Common and another similar one based on JOHN Q. ADAMS MARBLEHEAD LAGER. Both used WY2112.

From NB: California Common was an accidental discovery: residents
of Gold Rush-era San Francisco wanted to drink
Pilsner but local brewers had to make do with primitive
refrigeration techniques. The result was a hybrid style —
a highly hopped, pale lager fermented at ale temperatures,
and possibly America’s first original contribution
to the beer world. Our version exhibits earthy hop bitterness
and aroma, caramel malt, and a pale copper color
with a clean, crisp profile.

That is cool to know. Appreciate the history especially.

@casual thanks for the empirical data. Pretty much my plans you outlined there, with maybe some flavoring. Really appreciate it and also i feel like we are progressing forward instead of stalling in negativity.
 
So i made a munich dunkel (modified) and will be drinking it as soon as I finish my founders kbs clone modified. I don't think it'll be more than 10 days grain to glass. I'll update with pictures and stuff. Saf 34/70 (claro que si!) and 2 row instead of munich light because it was so cheap i couldn't resist. Total beer cost 16.50
 
So here's the beer. Based on all the pictures I've seen it looks exactly the same. I'm sure a little gelatin would make it look crystal clear. The point being that you can dance with your fermentor in the Moonlight, leave it for weeks, ferment cold blah blah blah and at the end of the day what does one have? Ten pounds 2 row and an ounce of hops. Thats it. Not an ipa, not a ris, and not a sour. People talk about aging these and expressing how they will get better with age, give me a break. Its one oz hops and 10 pounds 2 row. Btw it is very drinkable and delicious. If you have never brewed with lager yeast due to this Dogma, get on it because this yeast is really good.

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Yeah. California Common. I believe it's also know as Steam Beer.




Tried it before. There is a big difference, and doesn't suit my palette. I think I'll stick with ale yeasts for ales...


To each his own.
 
Hey thanks for posting. Sorry no comprendo though. Need to google steam beer. This is a dark european lager. Why ale yeast, i wanted a lager and got a lager. At 30 cents a beer for clean, delicious, easy drinking give it a try. I get tired of ales.
 
Oh i see googled steam beer and found this....


Steam beer is a highly effervescent beer made by brewing lager yeasts at warmer fermentation temperatures. It has two distinct but related meanings:

Historic steam beer produced in California from the mid-19th century to the mid-20th century;

Modern California common beer, a competition category name for the beer family which includes steam beers such as Anchor Steam beer.
Historic steam beer, associated with San Francisco and the U.S. West Coast, was brewed with lager yeast without the use of true refrigeration[1]

Final flavors of beer are influenced by the strain of yeast and the fermentation temperature. Lager yeast is best used at temperatures from 48 to 58 °F (9 to 14 °C). Classic lagering of beers takes place over a period of time from weeks to many months at a temperature of 37 °F (3 °C). Conversely, ale yeast is best used at temperatures from 55 to 75 °F (13 to 24 °C). Fermentation by ale yeasts produces a beer that has a more distinct flavor. Steam Beer uses bottom fermenting lager yeasts at ale temperatures, which results in a very distinctive flavor profile that includes both ale and lager characteristics.[citation needed]
 
The problem with some of the above is the fact that its a load of bulls..t. and quite frankly what goes in the pot is what comes out. Test after test showing little to no difference based on fermentation temperature, mash temperature and other dogmatic variables. Riddle me this, could one taste 2 tablespoons of coffee in a beer? How about 1/2 tsp cinnamon? The answer is hell yes, but in test after test very few if barely reaching significance, can tell the difference in fermentation temperature. Its ten pounds 2 row (pilsner) and an ounce of hops. People talking about aging it etc. Sorry if someone used unnecessary time and effort to make a "lager". The point is they dont have to any more. As always I welcome any real data showing otherwise.
 
While I'm sure that is a good beer, it will not be exactly the same as it would be fermented with a quality lager strain, fermented cool, and then lagered.

Even the lager strains from just Wyeast show differences- the Czech pils lager strain is "softer" than the Bavarian lager strain and they will taste different side by side.

In addition, lagering does things like drop proteins and polyphenols and provide that "crisp" mouthfeel and finish.

You may not prefer that, and that's ok. But this is no way this beer is "exactly the same" as it would be if fermented at a different temperature and lagered.

Maybe some yeast strains are more forgiving, and I've never used any dry lager yeast strains. I know that lager strains that I'm familiar with will ferment maltitriose, while ale strains will not, and that also makes a difference in the final beer when brewers do an ale as a lager.

You could try it for yourself- use a different lager yeast in one and do a more traditional lager yeast schedule. Compare them when finished and see if they are "exactly the same".
 
Thanks yooper for your thoughtful response, i appreciate it. I no doubt admire your intelligence, experience, and strength as a brewer. Here an issue is you offer no data to back up your convictions. Why do you hold these convictions so strong. Do you not trust the 5 experiments done by brulosophy, do you not have any faith in my experience. You know im from ft. Collins and have been drinking craft/micro beer for 23 years. That beer i made is crisp, refreshing and delicious. I will gladly try another yeast for my next batch. I am a voracious listener of podcasts and i have heard some real monsters in the industry be stumped by these tests. Reconsider my points,

Is the difference so vast and great that it really warrants passionate rebuttal? Are we talking clear and exacting differences or the splitting of a silkin hair.

Second you make my point at the end, we dont brew side by side comparrison batches as home brewers so without anything to compare to if its really good what is the problem? Do i really need a second batch where only 30 or however many out of 100 could tell a difference.

This brewing dogmatism holds people back from using a whole world of interesting beer making. Quite frankly i am a little surprised that a lover of home brew as yourself would not be fully supporting and experimenting. As always i hope we can continue discussing this and I value your opinion.
 
You're right, the entire beer industry is wrong. 10# 2-row and 1 oz hops will taste the same regardless of any "dogma" of fermentation temp, mash temp, water chemistry and so on that is spread by all those silly chemist, engineers and biologists. ��

Thank you for your post. I think it's important that these discussions happen. And i appreciate any intellectual discourse as always. I didnt mention water chemistry. In fact, since the beer is almost entirely water, water chemistry is probably the most important thing you can look at. We are talking home brew here not the entire beer industry. But at $0.30 a beer I'm thinking about borrowing somebody's equipment and brewing a couple 1000 barrels, why not. No you're right, you take 10 ounces of 2 row and an ounce of hops and you get crooked staves blueberry sour. I mean come on. Do you really think there's that much of a difference? What is your proof. What is your pony in the game anyways? Do you really believe that the difference is enough to make strong willed arguments? Thanks again for helping keep this discussion alive.
 
I used Brulosphy's quick lager method for my first Lager, a Czech Pale Lager. I did ferment at the cooler temperatures for the lager yeast, and bottled 2 weeks after brewing (cold crashed and fined with gelatin). 2 weeks after bottling, I am drinking it. It is crystal clear, and very well balanced. That being said, I am entering this beer in a competition in October, and have several bottles lagering in the fridge right now to take in for the judging. I am going to compare a bottle that has been lagering for over a month with one that has not had any lagering after being bottled to see if I can tell any difference between the two. Right now, this beer is easily the best I have ever brewed, and ranks high on the list of the best beers I have drank. I have alway been a lover of hoppy beers, and drink mainly heavily hopped IPAs, but this one has convinced me thay the Hoppy IPA I love so much is not the Holy Grail. I don't know if I will ever try fermenting with lager yeast at ale temps, since I am able to ferment and bottle the lager, at the lower fermentation temp, in the same amount of time as an ale, though I might give it a shot some day.
 
Thanks yooper for your thoughtful response, i appreciate it. I no doubt admire your intelligence, experience, and strength as a brewer. Here an issue is you offer no data to back up your convictions. Why do you hold these convictions so strong. Do you not trust the 5 experiments done by brulosophy, do you not have any faith in my experience. You know im from ft. Collins and have been drinking craft/micro beer for 23 years. That beer i made is crisp, refreshing and delicious. I will gladly try another yeast for my next batch. I am a voracious listener of podcasts and i have heard some real monsters in the industry be stumped by these tests. Reconsider my points,

Is the difference so vast and great that it really warrants passionate rebuttal? Are we talking clear and exacting differences or the splitting of a silkin hair.

Second you make my point at the end, we dont brew side by side comparrison batches as home brewers so without anything to compare to if its really good what is the problem? Do i really need a second batch where only 30 or however many out of 100 could tell a difference.

This brewing dogmatism holds people back from using a whole world of interesting beer making. Quite frankly i am a little surprised that a lover of home brew as yourself would not be fully supporting and experimenting. As always i hope we can continue discussing this and I value your opinion.

Marshall's experiments are fun, and I like him a lot. He's a super nice guy and I enjoy talking with him.

His experiments are not scientific, and don't use different yeast strains to compare whether a warm fermented lager with, say, Bohemian lager yeast, at 50 tastes like one fermented at 70.

I have TONS of actual data to back of my convictions (like that lager yeast ferments maltitriose while ale yeast doesn't) and you have a bit of anecdotal evidence to suggest that I'm wrong. It's ok- again, if you love your beer I think that's great. But to unilaterally say "it's exactly the same" without actual testing via sprectomometry, entering competitions, tasting side by side, etc, its not actually data at all.

I'm all for "if it tastes great to you, and you and your friends love it", it's all that really matters. Four experiments by Marshall doesn't make it a new "scientific discovery".

Do I think you need to make a triple decocted, 16 week lagering process to make a beer I like? No of course not. But I also wouldn't universally say that it wasn't a valid process either because I don't have the experience or knowledge to argue with Narziss about lagers.

The point is not the like/dislike. You sort of denigrate those who can tell the difference, and my point is that there will be differences if tasted side by side not that I wouldn't like it or consider it a drinkable beer.

I think ANY blanket statements are a dangerous business in this hobby, and while I wouldn't say "you MUST do this or that", I'm am calling you on making blanket statements that the beer would be the same as a lager. It's not that I think your beer isn't delicious- I believe you.
 
I have found that temp control to be the single best thing I did to improve my beers...your mileage may vary.

The ability to crank the freezer down to 33 and cold crash also really clears up beer...push a button, get clearer beer...what's not to like.
 
His experiments are not scientific, and don't use different yeast strains

I have TONS of actual data .....

It's ok- again, if you love your beer I think that's great.* But to unilaterally say "it's exactly the same" without actual testing via sprectomometry, entering competitions, tasting side by side, etc, its not actually data at all.

I'm all for "if it tastes great to you, and you and your friends love it", it's all that really matters.* Four experiments by Marshall doesn't make it a new "scientific discovery".

The point is not the like/dislike.* You sort of denigrate those who can tell the difference, and my point is that there will be differences if tasted side by side not that I wouldn't like it or consider it a drinkable beer.

I think ANY blanket statements are a dangerous business in this hobby, and while I wouldn't say "you MUST do this or that",* I'm am calling you on making blanket statements that the beer would be the same as a lager.*** It's not that I think your beer isn't delicious- I believe you.

Thanks again yooper and appreciate it as always. They are plenty scientific imo. They have used plenty of different yeasts over 5 experiments as well. Perhaps some work, some dont, im willing to try. Please share your data relating to warm ferment lagers. It would be especially nice if they included taste tests. If "sprectomometry" is needed to tell the difference that is my whole point. The if it tastes great to you argument, i just really tire of that being honest.

May i ask how many warm lagers you have made or tasted. Are you one of the people who can tell the difference. What is the difference?


39 people at the national Homebrew convention couldn't tell wlp 800 fermented at 50 or 66 including the brilliant minds of denny conn, Andy Sparks, Michael Tonsmeier, Matt Humann, Doug Wawrzynzki, Steve Wilkes, James Spencer, Toxicologist Paul and wife Amy, Sean Wood, and Aaron Collier. It was also given to BJCP judges who have much better pallets than myself. Once again the point being with such a slight difference why does it matter so much. Especially considering ease, and affordability of these beers. I remain surprised at your response to this. I am curious what your pony in this is. Since you have made lagers you are in a good position to warm ferment one and tell us the difference you see. I am making a blanket statement Brewing Dogma is tiresome, unnecessary, used to denigrate others, and needs reconsidered. I never said that a traditional process wasnt valid. Just that in light of the end result likely unnecessary. Once again the bottom line is is there really such a big difference that it warrants this kind of intellectual discussion. I mean are we talking apple juice and orange juice here. Think of how easily you could tell the difference in such a slight change in recipe. Yet test after test and anecdotal after anecdotal experience shows no response to any of these Brewing process dogmas. And you know better than anyone how much anecdotal evidence is on this website around these issues. It's not just my evidence. Well I appreciate keeping it friendly and I don't mean any disrespect to anybody and I'm sorry if I've done that.
 
Lager, Ale or Hybrid yeast fermentations all benefit from a proper pitch of yeast, the number of viable yeast cells and the vitality of those cells, that's a given. However, in my brewing experiences, having good control of fermentation temperature is another key component to consider when coaxing the best flavor characteristics from any style of beer.
 
@mismost and screwybrewer, thanks for adding your thoughts here, appreciate it. Feeling temp
control is important i ask: Should people not make lagers because they can't control temperature in your opinion?
 
Thanks again yooper and appreciate it as always. They are plenty scientific imo. They have used plenty of different yeasts over 5 experiments as well. Perhaps some work, some dont, im willing to try. Please share your data relating to warm ferment lagers. It would be especially nice if they included taste tests. If "sprectomometry" is needed to tell the difference that is my whole point. The if it tastes great to you argument, i just really tire of that being honest.

May i ask how many warm lagers you have made or tasted. Are you one of the people who can tell the difference. What is the difference?


39 people at the national Homebrew convention couldn't tell wlp 800 fermented at 50 or 66 including the brilliant minds of denny conn, Andy Sparks, Michael Tonsmeier, Matt Humann, Doug Wawrzynzki, Steve Wilkes, James Spencer, Toxicologist Paul and wife Amy, Sean Wood, and Aaron Collier. It was also given to BJCP judges who have much better pallets than myself. Once again the point being with such a slight difference why does it matter so much. Especially considering ease, and affordability of these beers. I remain surprised at your response to this. I am curious what your pony in this is. Since you have made lagers you are in a good position to warm ferment one and tell us the difference you see. I am making a blanket statement Brewing Dogma is tiresome, unnecessary, used to denigrate others, and needs reconsidered. I never said that a traditional process wasnt valid. Just that in light of the end result likely unnecessary. Once again the bottom line is is there really such a big difference that it warrants this kind of intellectual discussion. I mean are we talking apple juice and orange juice here. Think of how easily you could tell the difference in such a slight change in recipe. Yet test after test and anecdotal after anecdotal experience shows no response to any of these Brewing process dogmas. And you know better than anyone how much anecdotal evidence is on this website around these issues. It's not just my evidence. Well I appreciate keeping it friendly and I don't mean any disrespect to anybody and I'm sorry if I've done that.

I was there, at that NHC with those folks.

Again, it's anecdotal and unscientific and it's not a huge sampling by scientific method. That doesn't mean it's not valid, but it doesn't mean that Narziss' exhaustive writings and findings are not valid either.

I'd just caution against blanket statements that make everyone else wrong based on your experiences.
 
Yeah. California Common. I believe it's also know as Steam Beer.

Tried it before. There is a big difference, and doesn't suit my palette. I think I'll stick with ale yeasts for ales...

Same here, I tried Anchor Steam once a few months back and didn't care for it much. Could just be the recipe I suppose.

Anyway, for the topic at large, frankly I don't see what the big fuss is. If you want to lager, buy a small chest freezer and temp controller, and lager. I was all in for under $200 to get my lagering setup. Did I need it? I guess you would say not.

But questions like "Do I need to lager?" could lead to "Do I *need* to do all grain when extract is easier?" "Do I *need* to make my own beer when it's easier to just buy?" You do this stuff because you enjoy it, not because you have to. And some people may simply prefer/enjoy doing it the traditional/"correct"/whatever over taking "shortcuts" or alternate approaches in the interest of time or money.

Cheers. :mug:
 
@mismost and screwybrewer, thanks for adding your thoughts here, appreciate it. Feeling temp
control is important i ask: Should people not make lagers because they can't control temperature in your opinion?

You're not making a lager. It's a steam beer at that point. It's a different beer. It has it's own category. It's a style that's been around for over 150 years. I don't understand where you are going with this...?



YOU'RE MAKING A STEAM BEER!!! NOT A LAGER!!!

:mug:
 
So a steam beer is a lager!? As always thanks for keeping this discussion alive. Wine women song; sex drugs rock and roll. Possible a rose by any other name would still smell as sweet. Are we talking Tomato tomatoh or tomato potato? Consider this in five experiments and my own experience and the experience of others, most people can't tell a lager fermented warm or cool when side by side. And when just reaching a level of significance the difference was perceived as slight. So therefore a steam beer is a lager and a lager is a steam beer. That's the whole point. By the way my cousin works for them pretty cool. And my mother and father are from San Francisco
 
I was there, at that NHC with those folks.

Again, it's anecdotal and unscientific and it's not a huge sampling by scientific method. That doesn't mean it's not valid, but it doesn't mean that Narziss' exhaustive writings and findings are not valid either.

I'd just caution against blanket statements that make everyone else wrong based on your experiences.

:) assumed you were, cool. I don't think I called anybody wrong and I'm sorry if I implied that. I made some strong statements last night over a few beers that could be perceived as me calling people wrong I don't want to do that. The point is it's not that somebody's wrong, it's that they're not necessarily right!
 
Same here, I tried Anchor Steam once a few months back and didn't care for it much. Could just be the recipe I suppose.

Anyway, for the topic at large, frankly I don't see what the big fuss is. If you want to lager, buy a small chest freezer and temp controller, and lager. I was all in for under $200 to get my lagering setup. Did I need it? I guess you would say not.

But questions like "Do I need to lager?" could lead to "Do I *need* to do all grain when extract is easier?" "Do I *need* to make my own beer when it's easier to just buy?" You do this stuff because you enjoy it, not because you have to. And some people may simply prefer/enjoy doing it the traditional/"correct"/whatever over taking "shortcuts" or alternate approaches in the interest of time or money.

Cheers. :mug:

This is well said. Perhaps it's really not about who's wrong it's about who's right. In my opinion the answer is both. Do the great people that have posted here believe that? Both methods are right, that's what I believe. That being said if one method requires a bunch of extra time and stuff and the other doesn't, I would argue one is much more advantageous. There's disagreement on that. My favorite line heard on my posts is why not just go buy it then. Brewing quickly and easily are passions of mine. I have many other passions many of which are splattered across this website.
 
I'm all for experimentation, where appropriate. If you want to challenge "brewing dogma" on a technical forum I think it would be a good idea to know WHY and HOW the processes you are challenging came into place.

Luckily for you this information is readily available. There is a great reading list over at https://www.ibd.org.uk/learning/learning-resources/reading-list/42/reading-list/. I'd go through the Brewing modules, the general certificates, packaging and if you still have time and interest review the Master sections.

It's hard to have experimental brewing without knowing things like why you want to control temperature, what the difference actually IS between a Lager and Ale yeast and so on.
 
OP, you may want to test out some different yeasts. 34/70 may be the most forgiving lager yeast of all and can ferment at much higher temps than most. I have used it at ale temps with good success but I have also used other yeasts that would throw diacetyl if you looked at it wrong. IMO, using the correct amount of yeast along with holding fermentation temperature constant whether it be warm or cold are the most important factors. Quite honestly the thing that sets a "lager" apart is that it is clean and crisp. This comes traditionally from "lagering" which uses the cold And gravity to drop out or "filter" the unwanted compounds and yeast. My take on this is that a lager can be made without "lagering" at all. I believe that a prolonged rest at higher temps is more important so that the yeast can eat unwanted compounds. After that I think filtering is key. Instead of using gravity and time we can use filter media to do the job quicker. I am working on this as we speak.
 
I'm all for experimentation, where appropriate. If you want to challenge "brewing dogma" on a technical forum I think it would be a good idea to know WHY and HOW the processes you are challenging came into place.

Luckily for you this information is readily available. There is a great reading list over at https://www.ibd.org.uk/learning/learning-resources/reading-list/42/reading-list/. I'd go through the Brewing modules, the general certificates, packaging and if you still have time and interest review the Master sections.

It's hard to have experimental brewing without knowing things like why you want to control temperature, what the difference actually IS between a Lager and Ale yeast and so on.

Thanks for that resource, ill check it out. Glad you are for experimenting. I don't have much of an interest in getting a degree in Brewing as it's just another part of my life like cooking or golf. A little curious about your assumption on my brewing knowledge. I have spent probably 10 hours listening and relistening to dr. Charlie banforth brewing professor on podcasts. He can talk about a boil or a mash for over 60 minutes. He is the professor of Brewing Sciences at UCLA as you know. Every single day I listen to Brewing podcast from the Brewing Network, basic Brewing radio, and other little things I find on my way to work and on walks at work. I'm a voracious listener of the history of Brewing. I've read every brulosophy experiment. I have pretty much read all of how to brew by John Palmer. I own the book Beyond the basics by mike karnowski. I have brewed 40 extracr batches and 50 all grain batches. I watch YouTube videos of People Brewing, like john palmer. I from Fort Collins and I've been drinking micro beer since high school. I've been to Germany twice as well as the rest of Europe and drank their beers and wines. Like I said I appreciate the resource as i will read it. I know there's so much more to learn. Getting back on topic, even though my knowledge is not the topic, the concept is still relevant. It is possible to have very limited knowledge scientifically of what is happening and make excellent beer. The whole point is whether right or wrong most of that Brewing discourse isn't applicable on The Homebrew scale for whatever reason. People are doing 15-minute mashes and 15 minutes boils without negative results. Fermentation temperature is just another aspect that falls in line with this. This process works regardless of one's Brewing knowledge and it's not going away. Neither are short mashes and short boils. Question is are you going to try geen eggs and ham? In the end the ten pounds of simple malt and an ounce of simple hops with lager yeast is likely to taste very close if not unidentifiablly different. It might be seen as different in a laboratory but it will be very similar on the palate in my opinion.
 
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