Sour Dough Culture = Sour Beer Culture?

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Curtis2010

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I recently captured bugs for my own sour dough starter culture. It makes some nice tasty sour dough bread now. Given that it is (presumably) wild yeast and lacto, why could I not use a small amount of it in some wort to grow a sour beer culture?
 
Just picked up some local malt drink (very few additives, have fermented it before) to use as a quick and dirty wort. Degassing now. Plan to innoculate with a bit of sour sough culture, let ferment, then decant off the clear wort (leaving the doughy sludge behind). Hopefully that nets a cultue I can use for sours. :beer:

Maybe feed with more wort once more after that to get a stepped up relatively clear culture.
 
There are some MadFermentationist posts using sourdough cultures. Also I have heard about this being done on the Basic Brewing podcast. Sounds interesting.
 
About a teaspoon of culture added to 24oz of malt beverage about an hour ago...minor signs of ferm already.
 
Hey Curtis - I've done this and have had good results. What kind of smells do you get when you harvest your sourdough for breadmaking? Mine produce a slight fruity/floral smell, and there are hints of the same when using the yeast for beer.

Also, what's your activation process when making bread? For my starter, 2 separate step-ups yields better results for bread than trying to just add a dollop of starter right from the jar. This can also be applied to beer. Active yeast seems to ferment better.

To get from sourdough starter to beer starter, I did a multi-day step-up process with some hopped starter wort. The acid from the hops seems to keep the lacto from developing (which is what I wanted for the style of beer I was going for). Every couple of days I'd add more starter (double in size), until I had about 1 quart of starter/yeast. I let this ferment for about a week, then tossed the entire lot into a 2-gallon batch, and it took off.

I harvested the yeast from this batch and used in the next. I've gone through about 6 re-pitches. I had to wake up the last one with a couple of steps of starter, as it had been sitting in the fridge for a couple of months, but it reactivated just fine.

I also did a multi-day step-up with un-hopped starter to allow the lacto to grow, and tried that with a Berliner Weisse - my sourdough bread was never super-sour, but the beer did have a nice lacto pang to it.

Have fun, and do report back.
 
I am a home brewer from Houston Texas and I am in Guatemala for about the next 10 days, who is home brewing?
 
Hey Curtis - I've done this and have had good results. What kind of smells do you get when you harvest your sourdough for breadmaking? Mine produce a slight fruity/floral smell, and there are hints of the same when using the yeast for beer.

Also, what's your activation process when making bread? For my starter, 2 separate step-ups yields better results for bread than trying to just add a dollop of starter right from the jar. This can also be applied to beer. Active yeast seems to ferment better.

To get from sourdough starter to beer starter, I did a multi-day step-up process with some hopped starter wort. The acid from the hops seems to keep the lacto from developing (which is what I wanted for the style of beer I was going for). Every couple of days I'd add more starter (double in size), until I had about 1 quart of starter/yeast. I let this ferment for about a week, then tossed the entire lot into a 2-gallon batch, and it took off.

I harvested the yeast from this batch and used in the next. I've gone through about 6 re-pitches. I had to wake up the last one with a couple of steps of starter, as it had been sitting in the fridge for a couple of months, but it reactivated just fine.

I also did a multi-day step-up with un-hopped starter to allow the lacto to grow, and tried that with a Berliner Weisse - my sourdough bread was never super-sour, but the beer did have a nice lacto pang to it.

Have fun, and do report back.

Cool.

When making bread I just so a single overnight step up (flour + starter + water, also called a "sponge") and then use it to make up dough the next day. Dead easy and works well.

My starter is noticeably tart to taste with a sour smell, but still tasty, so Im hoping to get that in a beer.

For my first attempt at a beer starter, I just dropped a dollop of starter (not stepped up) in malt drink. Over a few days it had minimal activity so I put a pinch of yeast in it just to get it doing something and see if additives in malt drink might be killing critters. Its fermenting now and the "head" looks like more than just krausen and has a little sour smell. Part of my thought process was that by products of yeast ferm would get other bugs going. Will see soon. However, doing a step up first makes more sense I think so will try that next time.
 
My little sample fermented out and did sour, but apparently my wild caught sour dough culture has some acetabact in it too...there is a noticeable acetic acid twang...not enough (yet) to be unpleasant, but not what Im really lookimg for in a sour.

I think I will try a lacto ferm using local natural yogurt next.
 
My little sample fermented out and did sour, but apparently my wild caught sour dough culture has some acetabact in it too...there is a noticeable acetic acid twang...not enough (yet) to be unpleasant, but not what Im really lookimg for in a sour.

I think I will try a lacto ferm using local natural yogurt next.

Were you aerating this at all? If the starter was exposed to oxygen, I'd expect that either acetobacter or the wild yeast in the culture could produce acetic acid. A lot of my first step starters and stored cultures turn acetic over time and have to be decanted and stepped up.
 
Were you aerating this at all? If the starter was exposed to oxygen, I'd expect that either acetobacter or the wild yeast in the culture could produce acetic acid. A lot of my first step starters and stored cultures turn acetic over time and have to be decanted and stepped up.

Not actively aerating, but air exchange can happen. It is closed by 2 layers of coffee filters. How do you close your starters? Airlock?
 
Well, the sour dough starter experiment is strongly acidic now. I suspect since its a wild caught culture that it has some acetabact in it.

Started a yogurt culture based one that is souring quite nicely though.
 
Just an FYI, most strains of Lactobacillus will not actually ferment anything. They do not produce alcohol as a byproduct. Lactobacillus produces lactic acid and in *most* cases you will see less than a .002 drop in gravity. It, also, does not produce a kraussen. If you have a kraussen or have a significant drop in gravity, you have yeast in there as well. Wild captured yeast can be deadly in some circumstances. The major reason that a sour bread dough starter isn't deadly is because of the heat during baking.
 
Just an FYI, most strains of Lactobacillus will not actually ferment anything. They do not produce alcohol as a byproduct. Lactobacillus produces lactic acid and in *most* cases you will see less than a .002 drop in gravity. It, also, does not produce a kraussen. If you have a kraussen or have a significant drop in gravity, you have yeast in there as well. Wild captured yeast can be deadly in some circumstances. The major reason that a sour bread dough starter isn't deadly is because of the heat during baking.


This is totally nonsense. If you have a credible source I will apologize and retract my statement but after a little research:

There is zero evidence that any wild yeast can make people sick other than the standard upset stomach from live yeast. Furthermore, a bread starter is not beer and contains totally different starches and amino acids which can provide a home to bacteria that produce toxic byproducts. These bacteria cannot live in wort. There is no microbe that can live in beer that is inherently deadly to humans unless you're severely allergic to mold and miss the fact that your beer is fuzzy.
 
Never heard of any deadly yeast strain...which one specifically would that be?
 
Just an FYI, most strains of Lactobacillus will not actually ferment anything. They do not produce alcohol as a byproduct. Lactobacillus produces lactic acid and in *most* cases you will see less than a .002 drop in gravity....

Lactobacillus actually ferments (metabolizes) a variety of sugars and some strains produce alcohol too. True it wont drop the gravity much (that's why ultimately you use a mixed culture including yeast). The Lacto is used just to create some lactic acid for souring and then the yeast do the rest.
 
This is totally nonsense. If you have a credible source I will apologize and retract my statement but after a little research:

There is zero evidence that any wild yeast can make people sick other than the standard upset stomach from live yeast. Furthermore, a bread starter is not beer and contains totally different starches and amino acids which can provide a home to bacteria that produce toxic byproducts. These bacteria cannot live in wort. There is no microbe that can live in beer that is inherently deadly to humans unless you're severely allergic to mold and miss the fact that your beer is fuzzy.

Never heard of any deadly yeast strain...which one specifically would that be?

+1 to not being aware of any yeasts being deadly... do you have any additional information on this?

Cryptococcus gattii. It was once thought to be a fungus, but it has been identified as an airborne yeast that has become virulent. Currently there are outbreaks in B.C., Canada, Washington and Oregon.

Quoted from the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/fungal/diseases/cryptococcosis-gattii/definition.html

Cryptococcus gattii lives in the environment (1), usually in association with certain trees or soil around trees. Humans and animals can become infected with C. gattii after inhaling airborne, dehydrated yeast cells or spores (2), which travel through the respiratory tract and enter the lungs of the host (3). The small size of the yeast and/or spores allows them to become lodged deep in the lung tissue. The environment inside the host body signals C. gattii to transform into its yeast form, and the cells grow thick capsules to protect themselves (4). The yeasts then divide and multiply by budding. After infecting the lungs, C. gattii cells can travel through the bloodstream (5)—either on their own or within macrophage cells— to infect other areas of the body, typically the central nervous system (6).

And considering that the OP is in Guatemala, this is a very real airborne yeast that would be deadly.
 
Cryptococcus gattii.
sorry, i should have been more specific - i should i have said a yeast that ferments wort, that can infect beer, etc. based on my cursory research on c. gattii, it is not a risk for beer.

which holds up to the collective experience: i have never heard of anyone becoming sick from drinking a c. gattii-infected beer. pretty sure we would have heard of this, since this infection is so nasty. seems to only be airborne.
 
sorry, i should have been more specific - i should i have said a yeast that ferments wort, that can infect beer, etc. based on my cursory research on c. gattii, it is not a risk for beer.

which holds up to the collective experience: i have never heard of anyone becoming sick from drinking a c. gattii-infected beer. pretty sure we would have heard of this, since this infection is so nasty. seems to only be airborne.

The OP was talking about using their sour dough bread starter to culture for beer. My point was that there are some yeast that could be in a sour dough starter that could be dangerous or even deadly.
 
Yeah, but you implied pretty strongly that it could end up in the beer. Why even bring it up? You're just spreading misinformation.

Also, it's not a big deal to say "sorry, I was wrong." Why defend a position when you're obviously wrong? I think that's one of the biggest problems in the world today (*steps off soapbox*).
 
Yeah, but you implied pretty strongly that it could end up in the beer. Why even bring it up? You're just spreading misinformation.

Also, it's not a big deal to say "sorry, I was wrong." Why defend a position when you're obviously wrong? I think that's one of the biggest problems in the world today (*steps off soapbox*).

I never implied that it could end up in beer. I specified that it is why such things do not survive in bread due to the heat of baking. The OP was talking about wild yeast captured for sour dough.

I have no reason to say I was wrong, I brought up something pertinent to the OP's question about wild yeast in a sour dough culture. If you read more into it than that, that is on you.
 
I never implied that it could end up in beer. I specified that it is why such things do not survive in bread due to the heat of baking. The OP was talking about wild yeast captured for sour dough.

I have no reason to say I was wrong, I brought up something pertinent to the OP's question about wild yeast in a sour dough culture. If you read more into it than that, that is on you.

In response to a question about using a sour dough starter to sour a beer:

"wild yeast can be deadly in some circumstances."

That 100% implies that using a sour dough starter in beer could be dangerous/deadly.

It was not pertinent to the questions the OP asked because this is not one of those circumstances (breathing spores). If this wild airborne yeast is around, it's a lot more likely to cause problems by breathing than by culturing and eating wild yeast in sour dough, since it infects the lungs. So your warning should have been to tell everyone to hold their breath all the time, because you might breath in this spore that has NOTHING to do with sour dough or beer. There is zero link between c. gattii and food products of any kind in fact.

Your post was misleading and did nothing to assist the OP or provide a warning worth the internet it was printed on.

\end rant
 
Cryptococcus gattii. It was once thought to be a fungus, but it has been identified as an airborne yeast that has become virulent. Currently there are outbreaks in B.C., Canada, Washington and Oregon.

Quoted from the CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/fungal/diseases/cryptococcosis-gattii/definition.html

Cryptococcus gattii lives in the environment (1), usually in association with certain trees or soil around trees. Humans and animals can become infected with C. gattii after inhaling airborne, dehydrated yeast cells or spores (2), which travel through the respiratory tract and enter the lungs of the host (3). The small size of the yeast and/or spores allows them to become lodged deep in the lung tissue. The environment inside the host body signals C. gattii to transform into its yeast form, and the cells grow thick capsules to protect themselves (4). The yeasts then divide and multiply by budding. After infecting the lungs, C. gattii cells can travel through the bloodstream (5)—either on their own or within macrophage cells— to infect other areas of the body, typically the central nervous system (6).

And considering that the OP is in Guatemala, this is a very real airborne yeast that would be deadly.

Interesting, though per CDC, infection is rare and mostly affects those with compromised immune systems. No cases reported in Central America.
 
you are bringing up a boogeyman. why not throw in Candida auris while you're at it?

OP: hundreds if not thousands of brewers have made beer with sourdough starter. no one has been reported as gotten sick from any yeast infection(s) in their beer. draw your own conclusions.
 
you are bringing up a boogeyman. why not throw in Candida auris while you're at it?

OP: hundreds if not thousands of brewers have made beer with sourdough starter. no one has been reported as gotten sick from any yeast infection(s) in their beer. draw your own conclusions.

Its not high on my list of concerns. Natural ferm has been practiced for centuries and related illnesses are very rare.
 
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