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DRV

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Long brewing day but way more relaxed as things were a little more organized. The grain bill was a total of 12.4lbs of Grouse Millet and 2lb's of Eckard Rice Malt. I did one pass using a Monster Mill 2 roller at .63mm and 2lbs of rice at .70mm. My last gravity reading was 1.023 pre-boil collected from roughly 7 1/2 gallons. Post boil with with 1lb of D-45 beet sugar it was 1.034

Here are my notes

Grist/Mill
I spoke with Jim from Eckard and based on the pictures I sent him the Monster Mill 2-roller at .70mm produced the optimal grist. It was a pain to grind the rice, I found having to do short spurts in order to get it done, haha. I guess next time I could start at .80 and then step it down. I did one pass this time at .60mm for the millet as last batch I did a second pass. I thought this was a good blend of finer particulate and whole hulls.

Water Treatment
Using my tap water, I ran it through a carbon conical filter at 1 hour and collected 10 gallons. Based on the results of the Lamotte Brewlab I had the water was treated with .5g of NAHCO3, 6g of CaSO4 and 8g of CaCl2 and 6g of MgSO4

Mash
17.5qts of 152f water we're added to reach a target of 140f of which we got 143.5f. After 30 minutes 5.8qts of boiling water were added bringing the mash to 156 for 60 minutes. 4.2 quarts of boiling water were
added bring the mash to 160 for 60 minutes.

Mash notes
This time I covered the rubbermaid mash tun and found that to be a huge help, very little temperature changes during the 60 minute rests I lost 1-2 degree's. I noticed there was one section of the mash tun that was consistently 2 degrees lower then the rest, which I ended up moving around the mash to balance that out. Starch conversion test showed all no starches present. For batch #4 I am going to purchase a PH meter to take the guess work out of where I may be for my mash PH

Sparge
I set the grain bed with a series of vorlauf's and let it take between 30-45min drain. I had 1.5 gallons of sparge available to use. I completed one sparge, reason is I liked having the strike water cover the bed from top to bottom. I stirred the mash thoroughly and set it with a series of vorlauf's. One thing I noticed is that I must have agitated the bed a lot because the first couple of vourlauf's were a milky color that eventually dissipated. The temperature of the spare water was in the 170f's. A little over 7 gallon's was collected at 1.021.

Misc
I though based on the grains I used the SRM would be much lower than what I see. It looks almost like a burnt orange and I was thinking it would be a lot lighter. I am still trying to improve my efficiency before I bring in enzymes. I want to push the grain as far as I can before I add anything additional.

Boil
The boil was 60 minutes with a total of 4oz's of hop addition, grapefruit peel, yeast nutrient and 1lb of D-45 beet sugar. I was happy with the whirlpool at the end of the boil, very little sediment made it into the carboy.

Cooling
Using a counterflow chiller I was able to get a 1.5:1 spent water to beer ratio cooling 5 gallon's of beer down to 102f. I want to continue to be more efficient and use less water. Trying to figure out how to reuse spent water. Ice bath in my kettle brought the carboy down to 78f. During this time I used a airstone for a total of 15min to oxygenate the wort.

Yeast
Fermentis Safale-05 was rehydrated at 80f in 6oz's of water. Using a stir plate it was agitated for 120 min. Before pitching the yeast the stir plate was stopped for a total of 45min. The yeast was pitched in the wort that was reading 78f. The chest freezer is set for 65f and I am planning to step it to 72 over the next 2-3 days

Very happy with the day, I am hoping to understand why my OG is low. The good thing is that it is consistent with my last batch, so somewhere I can improve.
 
Hi, regarding your low efficiency/OG, my approach to that is that I don't care whether my efficiency is high or low or inbetween, i just want it to be consistent so that I can predict it from recipe to recipe. In other words, if I know my efficiency is 70%, I can build recipes based on that number and in order to hit whatever target OG I have. To me, being able to hit target OG consistently is much more valuable than having a high efficiency.

I don't brew gluten free, I'm wondering how the mash conversion works for you, without the enyzmes in barley malt there to do the work on the other grains?
 
Hello Pappers, thanks for the reply. So far the results from the 2nd and 3rd batch have been very similar. The cold side of things is working out well for me. The hot side I am not sure yet. What I have noticed so far is that most people add enzymes to make up for the lower enzymatic power of the grain. I am attempting to find the limit first of the grain before I add them. I went a little finer on the grind of the grist this batch from .67 to .60. I am finding that based on 10 gallons of strike water I have enough water for one solid sparge after mashing. I am performing a step mash and have a constraint because my mash tun is not heatable as I am using a northern brewers "rubbermaid" mash tun. I emailed the producer of the grain to ask about the gelatinzation temperature they recommend for millet.
 
The fermentation looked like a little less then a day of inactivity followed roughly 4 days of constant activity. Very pleased with this yeast strain, this is the first time I have used it.

OG: 1.034
FG: 1006

Initial taste thoughts: I used a total of 4oz of hops during the boil, a combination of Simply Select and Amarillo. I felt the beer had a nice amount of hop forwardness, when I calculated the IBU it was showing in the mid 40's. It has a good bready nose from the Munich and Vienna malts. The SRM looks to be more like a burnt yellow. The sweetness was very subtle and nice. I am excited to see this beer carbed!!! Only thing I can say is that when I am able to extract more dextrin's I think this beer would be much better, just needs a little more body. It is a little thin, although I was happy to see it attenuate so low. :)
 
Your temps for your rests seem very high. As far as the beer's body is concerned it can be attributed to the yeast using all the sugar up and thinning out the body with alcohol content. To balance out the body of Millet beers you need to leave some UN-fermented sugars/protein to remain so the palate can detect them. I use 100% Millet malt but the temps are lower. 40cel, then 55cel, then a sacc temp of 80cel, then a rest at 67cel for 60mins. I also get low OG but its consistently between 1.024 and 1.035 depending on the type of beer Im making.
 
Hi DRV,

Your process looks good to me! I don't think your rest temps are too high at all. A lot of us use very similar temperatures. If I did the math correctly you got about 12 ppg out of your mash. I expect you can get in 15 to 18 range without enzymes, so there may be a few points to be gained. I have gotten in that range when I forgot to add enzymes or ran out and it does not look like I do anything substantially different than you do. Some thoughts:

Consider keeping the same temperature steps but dough in with a little less water to save more for the sparge. First rest with a 1 quart/lb water to grist ratio. A two or three step sparge really helps.

Of the millet, how much was munich and vienna?
I had some trouble on batches where the percentages were high with them. Because they are lightly roasted, the enzymes are not very strong. I now use at least 50% pale millet but usually closer to 75% with some munich and/or vienna in with the last 25%.

Water chemistry is a temperamental beast. Looks like you have spent some time dialing that in. I had my tap water tested with Ward labs and then I add salts to bring residual alkalinity into the range I want with a balance of Cl and SO4.
I can't be bothered to filter that much water, so I just add potassium metabisulfite to knock down the chloramine in the city water.

I am also in the camp that relatively consistent efficiency is more important than high efficiency. Rather than killing myself to get a few more ppg out of the grain, I can just add some extra grain. I abandoned the super complicated step mashes and docoction steps to carry enzyme rich mash water through high temp rests. I possibly got a little better efficiency with the extra complexity but could not detect a difference in the end product. I now focus on the recipe and I try to keep the OG about 1.050 for my pale ales. I shoot for 5 gallons, but if my efficiency is low, then I just put less in the primary.

Good luck and keep posting your experience!
 
Morning Chris, I emailed Grouse and asked about the gelatinization temperature of their grain and they stated around 161F. I was thinking based on what I was reading it would be much higher than that. The schedule I was using is the one that Grouse is recommending for a step mash. I am still curious as 161f is the gelatinization temperature for this grain, I would like to see a portion of the at that temperature or a little higher for a longer period of time and then bring that into the step mash schedule and see what sort of extraction i get. I also want to know about bringing a portion of the grain to a boil then bringing that into the mash schedule.

Here is the breakdown of the last brew in lb's
2 Eckard Biscuit Rice
2 Grouse Pale Millet
2 Grouse Light Millet
2 Grouse Vienna Millet
2 Grouse Munich Millet
5 Grouse Pale Millet

I was surprised the SRM I got for the brew, I thought it would have been a little lighter in color, a learning curve for sure.

For the next brew I ordered a Hach PH meter will help to ensure I am on point with the PH of the mash because right now I am not totally sure where I am at. One question I have is, are there any PH buffer's you would recommend if I find the mash to be alkaline? Thanks for your guidance on Potassium Metabisulphite, I was able to use that for the last brew .03grams per gallon.

I am happy that my process so far is yielding similar results. The goal still is to see how efficient I can be before adding enzymes. What enzymes are you using in your mash?

This was my first run with Safale-05 and I found it to be very efficient. My process for culturing the yeast hasn't changed. A stir plate, yeast nutrient and 10-15 minutes of a airstone while I am cooling the post boil brew.




Hi DRV,

Your process looks good to me! I don't think your rest temps are too high at all. A lot of us use very similar temperatures. If I did the math correctly you got about 12 ppg out of your mash. I expect you can get in 15 to 18 range without enzymes, so there may be a few points to be gained. I have gotten in that range when I forgot to add enzymes or ran out and it does not look like I do anything substantially different than you do. Some thoughts:

Consider keeping the same temperature steps but dough in with a little less water to save more for the sparge. First rest with a 1 quart/lb water to grist ratio. A two or three step sparge really helps.

Of the millet, how much was munich and vienna?
I had some trouble on batches where the percentages were high with them. Because they are lightly roasted, the enzymes are not very strong. I now use at least 50% pale millet but usually closer to 75% with some munich and/or vienna in with the last 25%.

Water chemistry is a temperamental beast. Looks like you have spent some time dialing that in. I had my tap water tested with Ward labs and then I add salts to bring residual alkalinity into the range I want with a balance of Cl and SO4.
I can't be bothered to filter that much water, so I just add potassium metabisulfite to knock down the chloramine in the city water.

I am also in the camp that relatively consistent efficiency is more important than high efficiency. Rather than killing myself to get a few more ppg out of the grain, I can just add some extra grain. I abandoned the super complicated step mashes and docoction steps to carry enzyme rich mash water through high temp rests. I possibly got a little better efficiency with the extra complexity but could not detect a difference in the end product. I now focus on the recipe and I try to keep the OG about 1.050 for my pale ales. I shoot for 5 gallons, but if my efficiency is low, then I just put less in the primary.

Good luck and keep posting your experience!
 
Not sure about the exact gelatinization temperature. Some brewers do a single infusion 155F to 158F and some tout going up to 170F or so and bring it back down. I have done both. For those of us that mash in coolers, moving the temperture around a lot means adding water. My view these days is that the sparge is very important to thoroughly wash the sugars you worked so hard for out of the grain. If you want to investigate going up in the 170 range and bring back down, you might want to forego the 140F rest. Mash in a little higher so that you can move it up and back down and still finish with 1.5 quart/lb.
Or you could begin your mash in a kettle so you can add heat for the initial rests and then transfer to the cooler for the drop and final rest. That is the way I do it when I do a step mash. It works quite well but it is a lot of stirring and tending to avoid scorching the mash.

On the pH thing... I don't have any good experience moving the pH around, but would also benefit from a good method. I have a pH meter. I did a bunch of calculation on my water chemistry. When I measured the mash pH close to the correct range with my water, I stopped checking pH. I find getting a super accurate pH reading to be difficult, and when I tried adjusting, I tricked myself into adding too much acid.

Safale US-05 is a good solid yeast. Possibly attenuates a little too much but it is my favorite among the readily available dry yeasts. I want to eventually branch out but for now I just stay with 05 and work on the rest of the process.
 
Hey Chris, a representative from Grouse got back to me and said around 161F is the gelatinization temperature. My thought was for the next batch take a 1/3 of the grist and sit it at a temperature higher than 161F for 30-60 minutes in the mash tun. Once complete lower the temperature by opening the top. Add the necessary 152F strike water, add the remaining grain and start my step mash schedule from there. I want to see how much more sugar I am able to extract by gelatinizing that third of the grain.

Thank you for the suggestion on going with a thicker mash to have additional sparge water.

I ended up going with the Hach Pocket Pro+ and received it today. I will read up on ways to move the Mash PH around if it's off.

For the next batch I think I am going to try a different Fermentis strain as I don't want it to attenuate that low. I have used so far WB-06 and also T-58 and was happy with both.
 
...As far as the beer's body is concerned it can be attributed to the yeast using all the sugar up and thinning out the body with alcohol content. To balance out the body of Millet beers you need to leave some UN-fermented sugars/protein to remain so the palate can detect them...

Hey brwmistr, I am seeing the same thing happening with my batches (thin batches). I am using US-05 and my batches have been thin. My last brown ale really suffered due to this, but my pales are also thin. My next batch will have a pound of buckwheat in the mash as this has been reported (by Chris among others) to help mouth feel and head retension. But your comment above intrigued me: are you perhaps suggesting to pull the batch from primary before the target FG is hit? For example, my next batch was done up on brewtoad and for a 1.063 OG, and US-05 it churned out a target FG of 1.009 (not sure why that number is arrived at but maybe its a factor of the yeast choice). Are you saying that if I use a higher target for FG, some residual sugars would remain and the quality of the beer would increase. If so, what are we talking, 5 points, 10? (so target 1.014 - 1.019) range?
 
Not sure about the exact gelatinization temperature. Some brewers do a single infusion 155F to 158F and some tout going up to 170F or so and bring it back down. I have done both. For those of us that mash in coolers, moving the temperture around a lot means adding water. My view these days is that the sparge is very important to thoroughly wash the sugars you worked so hard for out of the grain. If you want to investigate going up in the 170 range and bring back down, you might want to forego the 140F rest. Mash in a little higher so that you can move it up and back down and still finish with 1.5 quart/lb.
Or you could begin your mash in a kettle so you can add heat for the initial rests and then transfer to the cooler for the drop and final rest. That is the way I do it when I do a step mash. It works quite well but it is a lot of stirring and tending to avoid scorching the mash.

On the pH thing... I don't have any good experience moving the pH around, but would also benefit from a good method. I have a pH meter. I did a bunch of calculation on my water chemistry. When I measured the mash pH close to the correct range with my water, I stopped checking pH. I find getting a super accurate pH reading to be difficult, and when I tried adjusting, I tricked myself into adding too much acid.

Safale US-05 is a good solid yeast. Possibly attenuates a little too much but it is my favorite among the readily available dry yeasts. I want to eventually branch out but for now I just stay with 05 and work on the rest of the process.

Chris, are you typically doing a 2 hour mash at 155-158F in a cooler with Termamyl or similar? I was wondering if would make sense to do a 1-2 hour mash in the low 160s above the 161 gelatinization temp of grouse millet, then let it naturally drop into 152-155F then add Termamyl (it says mash at 152F on the bottle) for an hour or more for the starch conversion.

Granted, this would be a more complicated mash that what I am doing currently: my last batch had about 14.5lbs of grouse malts and I did a single infusion at 158F for 2 hours with Termamyl and I hit an OG in the 1.050s after a sparge. My main interest is one of efficiency since these malts are expensive and reducing the amount of grain could be good on several levels. For now, I am just throwing in a lot of grain to get a decent OG.

p.s. I think US-05 is over-attenuating my batches and contributing to thin beer.
 
The enzyme I have been using is Diatase from EC Kraus. I intend to get some thermally stable Termamyl and working that in but just have not gotten my act together.

I have been using a 30 minute rest at 140F and then 2 hours at around 160F. Top temp has varied a bit batch to batch. Depending on the ambient temperature, the temperature does drop and I always saw that as a benefit as it goes into the 150's. I have considered splitting my enzyme addition to one at the beginning and one late, but the only time I did a late one was when I forgot to add it at the beginning. I don't remember that ending up better or worse.

I think Legume typically uses a low final rest around 140 with late enzyme additions for her unmalted grain. That made me start thinking of working in a small temperature reduction in the end with a second enzyme addition but have not worked it out. I was thinking of doughing in a little higher than normal and a little stiffer than normal so that I could bring it up to high 160's with one infusion and then back down into maybe the low 150's and still not go over 1.5 quarts/lb grist ratio. I plan to brew this weekend, so maybe I will work it out and give it a go.

I use US-05 and it definitely over-attinuates (FG usually 1.008). It does not seem too thin to me as long as I keep my OG between 1.050 and 1.054 (pale ales).

When I was doing a more complicated step mash (115, 125, 150 heat to 165 rest for two hours), I was getting about 23ppg out of the mash. With a two step now I am at about 20ppg so I use a little extra grain but don't have to heat so I end up happier :)
If I can get those few points back without having to heat, I will do it!
 
Hey brwmistr, I am seeing the same thing happening with my batches (thin batches). I am using US-05 and my batches have been thin. My last brown ale really suffered due to this, but my pales are also thin. My next batch will have a pound of buckwheat in the mash as this has been reported (by Chris among others) to help mouth feel and head retension. But your comment above intrigued me: are you perhaps suggesting to pull the batch from primary before the target FG is hit? For example, my next batch was done up on brewtoad and for a 1.063 OG, and US-05 it churned out a target FG of 1.009 (not sure why that number is arrived at but maybe its a factor of the yeast choice). Are you saying that if I use a higher target for FG, some residual sugars would remain and the quality of the beer would increase. If so, what are we talking, 5 points, 10? (so target 1.014 - 1.019) range?

Stopping the ferment to save body may be hard to do. I used to use US-05 then I switched yeast to Coopers Ale because of its lower Attenuation of 75%. I then used malts that do more for body in combination with mash temps to leave more insoluble sugars that the yeast cant use. What I get is a OG of say 1.035 that attends down too 1.005. However you can start with higher OG as you have mentioned using the same yeast or make the same batch and use a different yeast and see the change. I have also used US-04 Safale until the price went to $6 a 7gram pack in Canada. I now use coopers and change the recipe to see the different ways I can brew. If your going to play with your beers you need to keep something the same to work with. Yeast is a good place to start. If you like the flavor of US-05 then start changing your malts to see if that will work for you.
 
I brewed this weekend and decided to try a little mash experiment because of some of the discussion above in this post. I split my mash into three and did something different for each. Since I mash in coolers with voile bags and I have 3 coolers and 3 bags it was not a big deal. Afterward, I combined everything for one boil. Here is what I did:

Pale ale grain bill for each (weighed out separately for each of the 3 mash batches)
62.5% pale millet malt
12.5% pale buckwheat malt
6.25% Munich millet malt
6.25% crystal rice malt
12.5% flaked corn

Diastase enzyme used on each.

I varied two variables, grain crush and infusion profile

Mash 1:
- Course grind (milled with 0.020” gap once through)
- Mash profile with 30 minute 1st rest at 140F with enzymes and then second infusion to 160F for two hours

Mash 2:
- Medium grind (milled with 0.020” gap twice through)
- Same mash profile as Mash 1

Mash 3:
- Medium grind (milled with 0.020” gap twice through)
- Mash profile with 1st infusion at 168F for one hour and then second infusion with cold water to 140F with enzymes mixed in for one hour

Comparisons are on grind between Mash 1 and Mash2 and with infusion profile for Mash 2 to Mash 3.

Gravity measurements in the mash tun just before extraction and before sparge:

Mash 1: 1.047
Mash 2: 1.048
Mash 3: 1.061

Basically, for final collection, I got 19 ppg for mash 1 and 2 and got 22 ppg for mash 3. Also, I took a gravity reading for all 3 at 30 minutes before the end of the final rest and there was a larger change on Mash 1 and 2 than on Mash 3. This indicates to me that the length of the final rest was more necessary for Mash 1 and 2. There would have been less impact for shortening the mash duration for Mash 3.

Note: the long first rest on Mash 3 was basically a mistake. I intended to rest only 15 minutes at 168F but messed up and did not chill a portion of wart in advance and it took me a full hour to get it chilled (mash water was already well on its way to infusion temperature for Mash 1 and 2 when I noticed my error!).

Not a big surprise to some of you but this shows me that the gelatinization step up close to 170F is important and then a lowering the rest at the end where the enzymes won’t be denatured is important. Might explain why I was getting variability in efficiency on previous batches as my top temperature varied between 160 and 170F.

Next time I brew I plan on doing some variations on Mash 3!
 
I brewed this weekend and decided to try a little mash experiment because of some of the discussion above in this post. I split my mash into three and did something different for each. Since I mash in coolers with voile bags and I have 3 coolers and 3 bags it was not a big deal. Afterward, I combined everything for one boil. Here is what I did:

Pale ale grain bill for each (weighed out separately for each of the 3 mash batches)
62.5% pale millet malt
12.5% pale buckwheat malt
6.25% Munich millet malt
6.25% crystal rice malt
12.5% flaked corn

Diastase enzyme used on each.

I varied two variables, grain crush and infusion profile

Mash 1:
- Course grind (milled with 0.020” gap once through)
- Mash profile with 30 minute 1st rest at 140F with enzymes and then second infusion to 160F for two hours

Mash 2:
- Medium grind (milled with 0.020” gap twice through)
- Same mash profile as Mash 1

Mash 3:
- Medium grind (milled with 0.020” gap twice through)
- Mash profile with 1st infusion at 168F for one hour and then second infusion with cold water to 140F with enzymes mixed in for one hour

Comparisons are on grind between Mash 1 and Mash2 and with infusion profile for Mash 2 to Mash 3.

Gravity measurements in the mash tun just before extraction and before sparge:

Mash 1: 1.047
Mash 2: 1.048
Mash 3: 1.061

Basically, for final collection, I got 19 ppg for mash 1 and 2 and got 22 ppg for mash 3. Also, I took a gravity reading for all 3 at 30 minutes before the end of the final rest and there was a larger change on Mash 1 and 2 than on Mash 3. This indicates to me that the length of the final rest was more necessary for Mash 1 and 2. There would have been less impact for shortening the mash duration for Mash 3.

Note: the long first rest on Mash 3 was basically a mistake. I intended to rest only 15 minutes at 168F but messed up and did not chill a portion of wart in advance and it took me a full hour to get it chilled (mash water was already well on its way to infusion temperature for Mash 1 and 2 when I noticed my error!).

Not a big surprise to some of you but this shows me that the gelatinization step up close to 170F is important and then a lowering the rest at the end where the enzymes won’t be denatured is important. Might explain why I was getting variability in efficiency on previous batches as my top temperature varied between 160 and 170F.

Next time I brew I plan on doing some variations on Mash 3!

I love you man! :)

I am not surprised at all and really the confirmation I was looking for!

I was thinking that this would be a good way to mash as well. Phase 1, gelatinization over 162F then lower it down to amylase optimal ranges in 140s or 150s. Thank you for doing a test. I will do similar next time. My efficiency sucks and this malt is too expensive to waste.

I am also doing biab in coolers so hitting a high temp first then cooling it is also something I was wondering about. So you were intending to draw off a gallon or so of wort and chill it (wort chiller perhaps?) and then re-add it back? I think brewers friend has a calculator online that i can use to figure out how much to draw off and chill.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!
 
I am also doing biab in coolers so hitting a high temp first then cooling it is also something I was wondering about. So you were intending to draw off a gallon or so of wort and chill it (wort chiller perhaps?) and then re-add it back? I think brewers friend has a calculator online that i can use to figure out how much to draw off and chill.

Hi Mergs,

When I first started mashing I used to do a decoction step to bring enzyme mash water past the getatinization run but it was a PITA so I abandoned it when I tried to go simpler. This one I just use mash water chilled in an ice bath. I have a spreadsheet I use for the heat balance to calculate infusions. I played around with the amounts so that it finished at 1.5 quarts/lb grist ratio. I just did a first infusion to get to 168F and then chilled some wart to drop it back down. I can post a table of these if you like.

Next time I am going to vary the rest times. The first rest was probably way longer than it had to be.
 
This simple mashing is awesome but I wonder how we can get the natural enzymes vs store bought to do the same work. I was thinking of a low temp mash to develop the natural millet enzymes in a separate batch and then high temp 68-70cel to gel the starches and using the cooler temp to drop down for the enzymes to go to work on the wort.

It sounds like it will work? Any thoughts?

Just need to experiment with this! I don't have access to the enzymes your able to get so its harder for me to brew it.
 
If you are talking about starting two separate mashes at different temperatures and then combining so that one portion has the enzymes and the other has been up to gelatinization temp, I have not seen that done. Give it a shot and post your results!

If you are talking about doing a step mash with a decoction step, it definitely works. It is just extra work. When I started there was a lot of talk about Andrew Lavery. I basically started out with his process and then experimented from there.

A version of his process is posted here:
http://www.glutenfreehomebrewing.org/recipes/showrecipe.php?recipeid=65

The original one that I copied from Andrew Lavery was a multiple step mash with something like
104F Beta-Glucan rest - 25 min
125F Protein rest - 25 min
- pull out some enzyme rich mash water
150F partial conversion rest 25 min
175F+ to gel starches - 5 min
chill below 160F before adding back enzyme rich mash water
153F for 60 min
collect and sparge

I get tired just remembering that!

I have not attempted home malting, but I think he was one of the pioneers in malting and mashing gluten free grains. Some of his malting info ended up here:
http://www.glutenfreehomebrewing.org/advanced_malting_tutorial.php
 
I just received another batch of grain from Grouse and Eckard. Here is my thought for Brew #4. I am going to keep with around the same Millet/Rice totals 12lbs millet and 2 lbs rice to see how the efficiency has changed from the last two brews.

My method will be a single decoction as of now. I am going to perform a Beta-Glucan rest at 122F for 30 minutes. From there remove 1/3 grain for a decoction. I will step the decocted grain to in the 150's then to boiling and since it's a lighter beer the boil time will be around 15 minutes. I don't know how much this is going to raise the temperature of the overall mash once I place it back into the mash tun so I will wing it from here. I am still on the fence about if I will do a double decoction. I am still working out the amount of water but since the last two batches I want to end up with more spare water than I previously had. The hope is with the 1 quart dipper that has holes like a colander most of the enzymes in solution will remain in the mash as I draw off the grain.
 
Sounds like a fun experiment!
So you will pull off a third of the mash for the high temperature run. It will be relatively stiff so you are probably planning to add some water to thin it up for heating, correct?
Are you going to bring the decanted mash up to a certain temperature, say 175F or truly boil it like a cereal mash?
 
Hey Chris, I am going to boil the 1/3 I am decocting and then return it back to the mash. Depending on how much this raises the temperature may lead me to do a double decoction. I am going to add enough water so that there is a thin layer on the top of the grain in the kettle that I decocting the mash in.

I am still not sure about my mash schedule, the previous two batches have been a step mash with with three temperature rests. I was reading a little about denaturing of enzymes and found it takes time for this to actually happen. That may lead me to want to do a single infusion at some point.

I am excited for this brew!!!!
 
I am also doing biab in coolers so hitting a high temp first then cooling it is also something I was wondering about. So you were intending to draw off a gallon or so of wort and chill it (wort chiller perhaps?) and then re-add it back? I think brewers friend has a calculator online that i can use to figure out how much to draw off and chill.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Hey mergs,

I use a similar high then low mash schedual.
The easiest way to lower the mash temp is to use ice.
I just dump in ice cubes and stir untill I reach my target temp.
It thins the mash a bit, but not enough to be a problem; and you dont have to mess with chilling a portion of the mash and adding it back.
 
I brewed this weekend and decided to try a little mash experiment because of some of the discussion above in this post. I split my mash into three and did something different for each. Since I mash in coolers with voile bags and I have 3 coolers and 3 bags it was not a big deal. Afterward, I combined everything for one boil. Here is what I did:

Pale ale grain bill for each (weighed out separately for each of the 3 mash batches)
62.5% pale millet malt
12.5% pale buckwheat malt
6.25% Munich millet malt
6.25% crystal rice malt
12.5% flaked corn

Diastase enzyme used on each.

I varied two variables, grain crush and infusion profile

Mash 1:
- Course grind (milled with 0.020” gap once through)
- Mash profile with 30 minute 1st rest at 140F with enzymes and then second infusion to 160F for two hours

Mash 2:
- Medium grind (milled with 0.020” gap twice through)
- Same mash profile as Mash 1

Mash 3:
- Medium grind (milled with 0.020” gap twice through)
- Mash profile with 1st infusion at 168F for one hour and then second infusion with cold water to 140F with enzymes mixed in for one hour

Comparisons are on grind between Mash 1 and Mash2 and with infusion profile for Mash 2 to Mash 3.

Gravity measurements in the mash tun just before extraction and before sparge:

Mash 1: 1.047
Mash 2: 1.048
Mash 3: 1.061

Basically, for final collection, I got 19 ppg for mash 1 and 2 and got 22 ppg for mash 3. Also, I took a gravity reading for all 3 at 30 minutes before the end of the final rest and there was a larger change on Mash 1 and 2 than on Mash 3. This indicates to me that the length of the final rest was more necessary for Mash 1 and 2. There would have been less impact for shortening the mash duration for Mash 3.

Note: the long first rest on Mash 3 was basically a mistake. I intended to rest only 15 minutes at 168F but messed up and did not chill a portion of wart in advance and it took me a full hour to get it chilled (mash water was already well on its way to infusion temperature for Mash 1 and 2 when I noticed my error!).

Not a big surprise to some of you but this shows me that the gelatinization step up close to 170F is important and then a lowering the rest at the end where the enzymes won’t be denatured is important. Might explain why I was getting variability in efficiency on previous batches as my top temperature varied between 160 and 170F.

Next time I brew I plan on doing some variations on Mash 3!

Thanks for sharing this great work!
Very nice experiment.
 
Hey Chris, I am going to boil the 1/3 I am decocting and then return it back to the mash. Depending on how much this raises the temperature may lead me to do a double decoction. I am going to add enough water so that there is a thin layer on the top of the grain in the kettle that I decocting the mash in.

I am still not sure about my mash schedule, the previous two batches have been a step mash with with three temperature rests. I was reading a little about denaturing of enzymes and found it takes time for this to actually happen. That may lead me to want to do a single infusion at some point.

I am excited for this brew!!!!

DRV,

I played around with the heat balance for this just for fun. I am showing this as starting two mashes, but you could start one and then wing it on separation. I think this shows you only have to do one decoction.

14lb grain bill separated into Mash1=9lb and Mash2=5lb
130F strike water. Add 11 quarts to Mash 1 and 6 quarts to Mash 2.
Both should end up at about 122F and 1.2 quart/lb grist ratio

Drain 3 quarts of mash water off of Mash 2 and add it to Mash 1.
Add 3 quarts of fresh water to Mash 2 (If you use 189F infusion water it will bring Mash 2 to 150F, otherwise use boiling and it will hit 160F).

Mash 2 is heated to boiling which will probably be at about 200F.

Combine Mash 1 and Mash 2 and my calculations show 145F combined mash temp with 1.43 quart/lb grist ratio. I think this puts you about where you want to be for your final rest.
Might be a few degrees lower as Mash 1 temp may drop a little while Mash 2 is being boiled. Anyway, puts you in the ballpark for adjusting up or down a bit without having to add a bunch of water.
 
I have been working on my newest addition to the brew system. Monster Mill!. Once this is finished being fitted to the hopper I will get to that two batch test I have in mind. I suggest the following procedure below using my home malted and un-roasted Millet.

The first Batch(1kg) will be heated to 55Cel to activate Alpha-amylase and Beta enzymes and the Second batch(1Kg) I will start at 50Cel and after 20mins raise the temp to 75Cel to gel the starches. I will test the OG on both to see a benchmark. My water will be set to 6.0pH. I will then lower the temp in batch (2) to 68Cel by adding the first batch to the second and let the whole batch sit for 90mins. After 90mins I will test the gravity again to see if this has worked at all.

If you see something I have missed please feel free to suggest.
 
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