Keg Line Length Balancing Question

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dmcmillen

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The concept of balancing a keg dispensing system is basically pretty simple. You're looking to balance the keg pressure with an equal resistance from the other elements of the system: tap, shank, gravity (resistance due to height of tap above center of keg), and line resistance, taking into consideration some additional flow pressure required for a proper flow rate.

The variable we are calculating is the the length of beer line needed to balance the system given everything else is fixed. The basic formula is:

L = (Keg_Pressure - 1 - System_Resistances) / Beer_Line_Resistance

L = Length of beer line required
1 = Overpressure reqd for the proper flow rate (ususally 1 for homebrewers)
System_Resistances = Total resistance in the given system: tap, shank, gravity, and line resistance
Beer_Line_Resistance = Resistance of the beer line used. E.g., 3 psi/foot for 3/16" line.

However, I see ths formula applied using two different ways of calculating what I am calling System_Resistances

Method 1
L = (Keg_Pressure - 1 - (Height/2) / Beer_Line_Resistance

Height/2 = resistance due to gravity and Height is the distance in feet from center of keg to center of tap
Here the only resistance being considered is the one due to gravity.
Two articles that recommend this method are:
http://beersmith.com/blog/2011/07/14/keg-line-length-balancing-the-science-of-draft-beer/
http://www.brewersfriend.com/2009/07/18/getting-a-good-pour-kegged-beer-co2-line-length-and-pressure/


Method 2
L = (Keg_Pressure - 1 - (Height/2) - Shank_R - Faucet_R ) / Beer_Line_Resistance

Shank_R = Resistance due to shank = 1 psi
Faucet_R = Resistance due to faucet = 2 psi
Here the resistance being considered is that due to gravity, shank and faucet so we have an additional 3 psi resistance to consider. This means for my system where I use 3/16" beer line, this method recommends a beer line that is 1 foot shorter.
Two articles that recommend this method are:
https://byo.com/yeast/item/164-balancing-your-draft-system-advanced-brewing
http://www.winning-homebrew.com/dispensing-your-beer.html

Please note that these two articles do not put forward this formula but this is effectively the formula they are using.

I am curious. Which is correct? Does it matter? I.e., is the science inexact enough that a foot here or there doesn't matter?
 
Go with the only beer line length calculator worth using.

Comes with a free education...

Cheers!

This should be required reading before anyone asks why their beer has a lot of foam but is not carbonated. People like to share their "I run 5 ft of beer line at 6 psi and my beer is fine" advice/stories, but they fail to mention that those numbers only work at between 30° and 32°F for carbonation levels up to 2.2 volumes. I think a lot of these people are settling for under carbonated beer and telling themselves it works fine. When someone tries to properly carbonate to style (2.5 - 3.5 volumes), at a more reasonable temperature (40°F), with 5 ft lines, they get a glass of foam and start looking for other solutions. They might think their lines are long enough because someone online told them that 5 ft lines work perfect for them, but the person giving that advice never discloses the real carbonation level of the beer they are settling for. A lot of times, you'll see the "I like my beer less carbonated" statements, which is probably due to not really wanting to balance their systems. Sure, you can take a shot with the 10 ft rule of thumb that others recommend, but that's not even long enough for many styles if you're serving at 40 - 45°F.

Of course this doesn't apply to those who use flow control faucets or the epoxy mixer stick work around instead of proper line lengths.
 
I haven't seen this calculator before (Mike Soltys). I'll spend some serious time with it tomorrow. What I did notice just playing around with it is the Line Length went up as Flow Rate increased. I would expect line length to go down as you increase desired Flow Rate because you need less resistance to get more flow. Adding more line increases resistance which slows down the pour. Maybe I'm missing something here.
 
I feel like a broken record with this lately. If you enjoy the science behind tinkering and trying to balance your lines then have at it.Ive gone down that road.The truth of the matter is if you get flow control taps youll never need to worry about lines and get perfect pours everytime.It boggles my mind how we all spend endless money time and research to brew the perfect beer and the very last aspect of it all before the beer hits the glass is the tap and that's where so many skip the proven technology.I run four foot lines with perfect pours everytime.It makes things so easy,even with a warm tower in the summer.I like the science of turning water into beer but fighting crappy pours sucks.
 
You've been kegging for how long? A few months?

Enough with the flow control sales job. Heck, you're not even on commission.
Not to mention lots of folks prefer not having their beer tainted with a sulphur note...

Cheers! (Oh - wait. I did mention that, didn't I ;))

[edit] I'll add this: there's no frickin' magic to properly setting up a beer dispensing system in a conventional fashion (ie: balanced via line resistance) if there's an actual plan in place that respects the physics.
The historic problem has been the epic level of misinformation - that could very well have originated from one misinterpretation of a tubing performance specification - that resulted in virtually every line length calculator being way the eff off the mark. Mike's work fixed that...
 
You've been kegging for how long? A few months?

Enough with the flow control sales job. Heck, you're not even on commission.
Not to mention lots of folks prefer not having their beer tainted with a sulphur note...

Cheers! (Oh - wait. I did mention that, didn't I ;))
A few months?? A few years and then some. That being said,I know I have been pushing the flow control lately but I honestly don't understand why with the endless help and knowledge and progression this forum has to offer why isn't flow control the "Go to " method for new keggers that might not know they exist.They really are a game changer.Ive heard of it but never gotten a Sulphur note.
I believe they should be at least mentioned and usually arent
 
Paying extra for the sulphur thing pretty much prevents me from recommending them, so I choose not to go out of my thought process to mention them, when there is a science-y alternative without any tainting risk.

I mean, seriously, how pissed would you be if I told you to spend an extra $10-20 per faucet that caused your beers to smell like sulphur, when I could have recommended you spend a few bucks on tubing that didn't screw up your beers?

Cheers!
 
Like a high inside fastball.

The "Flow Rate" is the time taken to pour a given volume.
Hence, the number goes up with greater time.
Which requires greater system resistance...

Cheers!

Thanks for the mental kick day_trippr! I needed that. Had a brain fart. Was thinking volume and not time. Duh.

Educate me a bit here if you would. I'll give you my disclaimer upfront before I do the research. Where does the sulfur come from in the flow control taps? Have you found Mike's calculator to be "accurate"?

Right now I have a keezer with 4 Perlick taps, 1 external co2 tank & primary regulator, 2 internal secondary regulators each feeding a 4 pos manifold. I set it up this way so I can run 4 kegs at one pressure and 4 kegs at another pressure.

Right now all my hoses are 5 feet, an obvious problem which is why I am here. I want to go ahead and fix this problem but that's turning out to be a bit harder than I expected. My initial decision at this point is to invest in additional hoses and hardware so I can either customize at kegging time or have prebuilt hoses. I expect to determine the volumes of co2 I want for a particular brew, calculate the pressure needed and then calculate the length of hose needed but I have had problems finding a "reliable" hose length calculator.

I am trying to figure out the best way to do this because putting a 3/16" hose onto a 1/4" barb should only be done once.

I would appreciate any suggestions here. How have you folks solved this problem?
 
Thanks for the mental kick day_trippr! I needed that. Had a brain fart. Was thinking volume and not time. Duh.

Educate me a bit here if you would. I'll give you my disclaimer upfront before I do the research. Where does the sulfur come from in the flow control taps? Have you found Mike's calculator to be "accurate"?

Right now I have a keezer with 4 Perlick taps, 1 external co2 tank & primary regulator, 2 internal secondary regulators each feeding a 4 pos manifold. I set it up this way so I can run 4 kegs at one pressure and 4 kegs at another pressure.

Right now all my hoses are 5 feet, an obvious problem which is why I am here. I want to go ahead and fix this problem but that's turning out to be a bit harder than I expected. My initial decision at this point is to invest in additional hoses and hardware so I can either customize at kegging time or have prebuilt hoses. I expect to determine the volumes of co2 I want for a particular brew, calculate the pressure needed and then calculate the length of hose needed but I have had problems finding a "reliable" hose length calculator.

I am trying to figure out the best way to do this because putting a 3/16" hose onto a 1/4" barb should only be done once.

I would appreciate any suggestions here. How have you folks solved this problem?

I found that just having longer lines, period, to handle the highest PSI you will have is fine. You don't have to use a calculator for each line. The only "problem" with a line that is too long is that it takes a few more seconds to pour a beer, so if you need 14' lines for a couple of them, just make them all that long.

A little rule of thumb that I found that works pretty well for me in my 40 degree kegerator with a few inches of rise to the taps is 1 foot of 3/16" line for every 1 psi on the regulator. Since I never go higher than about 12 psi, my lines are fine at 12'. I get perfect pours, all the time as a rule.
 
A few months?? A few years and then some. That being said,I know I have been pushing the flow control lately but I honestly don't understand why with the endless help and knowledge and progression this forum has to offer why isn't flow control the "Go to " method for new keggers that might not know they exist.They really are a game changer.Ive heard of it but never gotten a Sulphur note.
I believe they should be at least mentioned and usually arent

If someone already has regular (non flow control) faucets, why would anyone suggest to spend more money on all new faucets? Someone that has spent $40 a piece on high quality perlick 630s faucets, doesn't need to be told that they need to replace all of them with $60 a piece flow control faucets. If that was the best option, wouldn't bars have them? Not sure if I've ever seen flow control faucets in a bar, but they still manage good pours. Maybe if someone were asking advice before buying faucets, flow control could be suggested, but after the fact, it's not the best solution.
 
.... Have you found Mike's calculator to be "accurate"?

.... I would appreciate any suggestions here. How have you folks solved this problem?

I have found mikesoltys.com calculator very accurate. Trust the numbers it gives you, even if you think 12 - 18 ft beer lines seem ridiculous.

Also, as Yooper said, plan for the worst case scenario for all beer lines. If there's a chance you might serve a wheat beer at 40°F, and want 3 volumes of carbonation (which is mid-range for the style), you'd need at least 15.5 ft of 3/16 tubing for a good pour. If the next beer you serve through that same line is only carbonated to 2.3 volumes at 10 psi, the only drawbacks you'll have are a slower pour and maybe a little less foam (head) on top, but it should still be properly carbonated.
 
Great..Thanks for your imput.[sarcasm]
No where before my post OF EXLPORING ALL OPTIONS does the OP ever mention owning a single piece of equipment.Which is the exact reason for mentioning them...perhaps its exactly what someone is looking for and have yet to hear about them. SSHH.Lets keep them a secret,thats what the forum needs.Less information to make a decision by


You are correct, the OP did not mention having any equipment, this time. And yes, maybe it is exactly what someone is looking for. But, as you can see in a later post from the OP, they had never heard of the calculator that was linked. So, while they can probably find information on most homebrew supply websites about the different faucet options out there, they may not as easily be able to find mikesoltys.com line length calculator. If we're trying to give information and options, we have to include this tool as well, which is considered the most accurate line length calculator available.

So while "EXPLORING ALL OPTIONS", maybe explore them without thinking that your method should be the "go-to", and that the scientific approach isn't just as good of an option (if not better for some).

You're welcome for my "imput".
 
New to kegging and trying to figure this out. (I still need to decide on a keg but have most everything else). So, if I use a corny keg, can I just coil about 15-20 feet of tuning around the keg? Otherwise, where else does the tubing go?
 
I've got no clue what I need as far as equipment to get started brewing beer. Can someone tell me what all is needed?
Thanks,
Bobby Cox

Yes. You can wrap it around the keg or just coil it up and zip tie it, then set the coil on top of the keg. The long lines CAN be a bit of a hassle, but they do work.
 
Always a lively thread. I was guilty of the LHBS telling me "6 feet is fine" when I first started kegging. It's frustrating when you fall in love with the line length and start chasing temperature, pressure, and possible over carbonation as sources of foamy, flat pours. While all of those have presented me with problems in the past, I think going outside the "norms" with respect to line length has resolved more issues than adjusting temp and psi to combinations not found on The Chart for target carb levels.

I bought 100' of 3/16 line not too long ago and have no reservations about swapping out longer or shorter if I have a keg that won't behave.

<EDIT> I revisited Mike Stoltys line length calculator and smiled when I saw the parameters I entered when working out line length for a troublesome keg of Saison were still there (cookies I guess). Recommended line length ... 11.89 ft! I had been trying 6 footers. STILL couldn't make myself put that much line on and compromised with 10' and have had great pours.

Todd
 
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Does Mike Soltys have a downloadable spreadsheet for the line length calculator?

wapitiscat: I bought 100' of 3/16 line not too long ago and have no reservations about swapping out longer or shorter if I have a keg that won't behave.

Do you have a bunch of different length lines pre-made up? When you hook up a new keg do you try to match line length at that time?
 
Ok, so should I get 3/16 tubing? Is that a standard size that fits most everything? What brand/ type of tubing should I get?
 
Yes 3/16 tube.I used to run long lines of Home Depot stuff but had nothing but issues.My current tower came with 4 ft(lets not get into that again) lines.The brand is BEVFLEX.I believe there thicker walled and Im somewhat convinced that's stopping co2 breakout the cause of my previous issues
 
Yes 3/16 tube.I used to run long lines of Home Depot stuff but had nothing but issues.My current tower came with 4 ft(lets not get into that again) lines.The brand is BEVFLEX.I believe there thicker walled and Im somewhat convinced that's stopping co2 breakout the cause of my previous issues


Cool man, thanks
 
Wait... Do I need 15-20' of tubing for gas, liquid or both?

3/16" beverage tubing for the serving lines, the beer line. For gas, it doesn't matter. It just has to be long enough for you to be able to put your c02 and regulator(s) where you want. It can be short, or long, or anywhere in between.
 
You can get a 100ft length of 3/16 tubing on Amazon for $12 here.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E6BCXQ8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

This stuff is nice and flexible so easy to coil up on top of your kegs, and is superbly cheap so there's really no need to worry about using long lengths of the stuff at a time. It also stays flexible at fridge temperatures which the stuff Home Depot sells does not.

If you use barbed fittings it fits nice and snugly on the standard 1/4" barbs, depending on how secure you want to feel you don't even really need hose clamps, just heat the tube ends in boiling water and slide them all the way onto the fittings.
 
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3/16" beverage tubing for the serving lines, the beer line. For gas, it doesn't matter. It just has to be long enough for you to be able to put your c02 and regulator(s) where you want. It can be short, or long, or anywhere in between.


Wonderful, thanks Yoop.
 
You can get a 100ft length of 3/16 tubing on Amazon for $12 here.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E6BCXQ8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

This stuff is nice and flexible so easy to coil up on top of your kegs, and is superbly cheap so there's really no need to worry about using long lengths of the stuff at a time. It also stays flexible at fridge temperatures which the stuff Home Depot sells does not.

If you use barbed fittings it fits nice and snugly on the standard 1/4" barbs, depending on how secure you want to feel you don't even really need hose clamps, just heat the tube ends in boiling water and slide them all the way onto the fittings.


Funny, I just ordered this a few hours ago, was hoping it was good. Thank you for the tips.
 
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I bought 100' of 3/16 line not too long ago and have no reservations about swapping out longer or shorter if I have a keg that won't behave.
Todd

Do you have pre-made lengths that you use or do you custom build? Practically, how do you handle this?
 
A few months?? A few years and then some. That being said,I know I have been pushing the flow control lately but I honestly don't understand why with the endless help and knowledge and progression this forum has to offer why isn't flow control the "Go to " method for new keggers that might not know they exist.They really are a game changer.Ive heard of it but never gotten a Sulphur note.
I believe they should be at least mentioned and usually aren't

I have flow control Perlick faucets. I also had heard that they can exhibit a sulphur note when used to dispense high PH product like cider or wine. I have dispensed cider and never noted any sulphur taste or odor in cider or any of my beers. Been using them for a year.
 
I have flow control Perlick faucets. I also had heard that they can exhibit a sulphur note when used to dispense high PH product like cider or wine. I have dispensed cider and never noted any sulphur taste or odor in cider or any of my beers. Been using them for a year.
I would think the percentage of issues is so low its barely worth mentioning.Youll never find someone who downgrading from flow control to longer lines.Yet endless have gone the other way..theres a reason..they work. They almost have a Taboo vibe around here which is asinine.
 
No people just prefer simpler solutions, especially when people have already purchased perfectly good faucets. But you clearly have a drum to beat for whatever reason
 
No people just prefer simpler solutions, especially when people have already purchased perfectly good faucets. But you clearly have a drum to beat for whatever reason
I actually don't have a drum to beat whatsoever.I fully understand that people with an existing system usually are just trying to make it work.(reference my second sentence in post #6) The very fact the you refer to my mentioning the flow control as "a drum to beat" sorta proves the point it has a Taboo vibe.They should be mentioned in every Line thread.You could do "this" or "this".There are options,Isnt that the very essence of the forum to spread credible information.
 
Do you have pre-made lengths that you use or do you custom build? Practically, how do you handle this?

I guess it would be a custom build. I don't think you would ever have more than a few different lengths. I only have one "spare" line that has an extra liquid disconnect on it.I keep my temp constant and have a manifold with three mini regulators on it. So when I have a beer that I want to carb at appreciably higher or lower volumes, I can adjust the psi and then swap out a liquid line to get the pour right. It's overkill but I'm a sucker for flexibility.

I'd probably do OK if I just slapped 10 footers on all the kegs and just dealt with the slow pour.

Todd
 
I guess it would be a custom build. I don't think you would ever have more than a few different lengths. I only have one "spare" line that has an extra liquid disconnect on it.I keep my temp constant and have a manifold with three mini regulators on it. So when I have a beer that I want to carb at appreciably higher or lower volumes, I can adjust the psi and then swap out a liquid line to get the pour right. It's overkill but I'm a sucker for flexibility.

I'd probably do OK if I just slapped 10 footers on all the kegs and just dealt with the slow pour.

Todd

Thanks Todd. By mini regulator are you referring to the small co2 cartridges that folks use as a portable tank. I think they make them with fixed pressure or adjustable. The adjustable ones are a bit pricey.

My keezer set-up is an external co2 tank with primary guage and two inside secondary guages, each feeding a 4-pos manifold so I can have 4 kegs at one pressure and 4 kegs at a second pressure. Right now I only have four taps and four 5' lines. I like my beer cold so I keep my keezer at 35 but I'm starting to brew beers that are better served at warmer temps. (I know--I'm going to get comments about losing taste at colder temps and they're right for certain beers. That's why I wish I could dedicate 2 freezers) The 5' lines work pretty well at that temp and there is some variability with flow rate and volumes to make the 5' lines work. If I warm things up I'm going to have to go with longer lines. Like you I like flexibility so I appreciate you sharing what has worked for you.

I don't want to be removing barbs from hoses and reinstalling on another hoses. Hoses won't last long and I'll spend a lot of time working on my language skills. So my idea is to pick up more line hardware to build some more hoses. So I'm trying to figure out what lengths I can anticipate.

I already have my faucets so it's not practical to replace with flow control faucets and in-line flow control valves are too expensive. Now if I add more taps I would probably go with flow-control faucets assuming that they work. For the difference in price that solution just provides too much flexibility.
 
Thanks Todd. By mini regulator are you referring to the small co2 cartridges that folks use as a portable tank. I think they make them with fixed pressure or adjustable. The adjustable ones are a bit pricey.

I guess they'd be secondary regulators. It's a three way manifold with an adjustable regulator on each feed.

I don't want to be removing barbs from hoses and reinstalling on another hoses. Hoses won't last long and I'll spend a lot of time working on my language skills. So my idea is to pick up more line hardware to build some more hoses. So I'm trying to figure out what lengths I can anticipate. .

Yeah. Probably the way to go is to get extra barbs and swivel nuts for the keg disconnects. I haven't added any extra hardware on the back of my taps. They're repurposed from a tower and the barbs are part of the construction so I cut those ends when I switch a line.

Don't get too crazy and spend all your time managing your liquid line inventory.

Todd
 
Just put long lines on each faucet. No need to change to shorter lines when switching to a lower pressure. Seems like too much trouble to get a new line for each new serving pressure. Longer lines don't really have any major drawbacks, at least non that would warrant changing them over a couple psi.
 
Just put long lines on each faucet. No need to change to shorter lines when switching to a lower pressure. Seems like too much trouble to get a new line for each new serving pressure. Longer lines don't really have any major drawbacks, at least non that would warrant changing them over a couple psi.

Exactly what I (we) will end up doing but I have to mess around a bit on my way to the preferred solution.:mug:

Todd
 
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