Some questions on going Nitro

I just swapped out my co2 tanks and was asking the guy if he also had beergas. I was asking him the smallest tanks just to get an idea of the pricing. Apparently, they don't carry beargas much anymore and just have straight N2. Where I live, we only have one craft beer pub, and that guy using a mixing regulator which the sales more or less recommended. So, after doing some reading here I still have some questions.

I do have a stout tap. I also have a spare co2 reg somewhere (if I can find it). That's all I have now, so...


1) Can I use straight N2 with my co2 regulator and stout tap or does it have to be 75/25 beergas??

2) What about buying a mixing regulator (if there is such a thing)? I see gas blenders on sites like Micromatic, but they are far north of $500! Some of the cheaper ones look like a simple barbed Tee for $35.

3) Is beergas just the "lazy man's" approach to nitro beers? Instead of mixing it yourself (or using pure N2), you can buy it already mixed in a tank.

4) How is Beergas and N2 measured? Cubic feet? Pounds? What's recommended for 1-2 keg setup?

5) Can you bottle nitro beers? I bottle my beer from the keg, so is that process the same with a nitro setup?



I was under the impression that all I needed to do for a nitro setup was carb up a beer as I'd normally do if it was going to stay on co2. But then after it's carbed up, I would push that beer with N2 by using the N2 tank, co2 regulator set 3-4 times higher than co2 serving pressure, and then good to go. I thought the only thing different with nitro vs co2 was what was pushing the beer out of the keg.

I'm kinda confused on beergas vs N2. I know the differences between them as far as what they both are (beer gas is a 75/25 split blend of N2 and co2, respectively), but which for which setup is what I'm wondering about.


I'd like to have a nitro setup, but if it's going to be a few hundred dollars just to have one or two kegs on nitro, then I have to wonder if it's going to be worth it or if I should spend that money on something more important towards my brewery.

You need beergas rather than straight nitrogen. The reason is you need some CO2 in solution. It's not carb'd to the same level as non-nitro beer, but it's still carb'd. If you run straight nitrogen, dissolved CO2 will get lower and lower until it's essentially flat. Nothing wrong with using pre-blended beergas if you can find it. It's the same blend you get from using a blender and you don't have to spend extra on additional equipment (e.g. gas blender). I was going to use beergas on my setup, but my gas supplier would only fill the huge cylinders with beergas (the ones that are about 5 feet tall that bars would use).

If you can't find a beergas supplier and you're not in a hurry, keep an eye on ebay. I got a dual Micromatic blender (one outlet for nitro beers, one for lager/ale long draw) on ebay; I think I paid $200 for one that would have cost me around $800 if I'd bought it brand new. I saw a single gas blender sell for $120, so they can be found for much cheaper than the brand new prices.

Re measuring, I believe both beergas and nitrogen are measured in cubic feet since neither are in a liquid state inside the cylinder like CO2 is.

Re bottling, never tried it. Left Hand Brewing is doing it...not sure how though. Obviously, don't try it at 35PSI.

microbusbrewery said:

You need beergas rather than straight nitrogen. The reason is you need some CO2 in solution. It's not carb'd to the same level as non-nitro beer, but it's still carb'd. If you run straight nitrogen, dissolved CO2 will get lower and lower until it's essentially flat. Nothing wrong with using pre-blended beergas if you can find it. It's the same blend you get from using a blender and you don't have to spend extra on additional equipment (e.g. gas blender). I was going to use beergas on my setup, but my gas supplier would only fill the huge cylinders with beergas (the ones that are about 5 feet tall that bars would use).

If you can't find a beergas supplier and you're not in a hurry, keep an eye on ebay. I got a dual Micromatic blender (one outlet for nitro beers, one for lager/ale long draw) on ebay; I think I paid $200 for one that would have cost me around $800 if I'd bought it brand new. I saw a single gas blender sell for $120, so they can be found for much cheaper than the brand new prices.

Re measuring, I believe both beergas and nitrogen are measured in cubic feet since neither are in a liquid state inside the cylinder like CO2 is.

Re bottling, never tried it. Left Hand Brewing is doing it...not sure how though. Obviously, don't try it at 35PSI.

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Anything I need to look/look out for when scouting gas blenders on eBay?

I may go see the owner of the craft beer pub here in town. He's a pretty cool dude, so I'm sure he won't mind letting me see how he has his rigged up. Figured it would at least give me an idea of what I'm getting into.


With your setup, do you hook the beergas form the start after racking to a fresh keg, or do you carb it up (to a lower pressure as you pointed out) first with straight co2, then just use the beergas for serving?

On another note, can you tell me more about the long draw on your dual outlet blender? Is that like a beer engine?


Sorry for all the noob questions. If I find a blender for the right place, I don't want to look back and think I should have got a dual blender likes yours or similar, kind of like my dual body regulator I have now compared to the single body that came with my keg system. Also, I'm guessing with a blender, you can still use a standard regulator, or will I need one made for N2/Beergas?

No problem at all, I had a lot of the same questions.

As for what to look out for, it's a bit of a gamble because you're really relying on someone you don't know to be honest. Most of the ones I was looking at usually said they were removed from a bar/pub in good working order. I don't think there's much mechanically that usually goes wrong with them. As long as they don't look beat up in the pics, you should be good.

I usually add priming sugar when I keg and let it naturally carb up. I'll shoot for about 1.3 volumes, let it go for a couple weeks, then put it on beergas. I know some people put it right on beergas though, but I've heard it can take a couple weeks to carb.

The long draw on it is for pushing beer through longer lengths of tubing. It's more common in a bar or restaurant where you might have lines running from the basement or across a room. It uses a 70% CO2 and 30% N2 mixture. If you tried pushing it with straight CO2 on long draws, you'd risk overcarbing the beer (due to the higher pressure needed to overcome the tubing resistance). I don't even use the the lager/ale output on mine. I toyed with the idea of running a line out to my back patio, but access for cleaning and replacing the line would have been a problem. This is the one I have, http://www.micromatic.com/pro-line-gas-blender/micro-matic-co2-n2-gas-blender-2-blends-mm200

As far as regulators, I think some blenders come with one built in, but mine didn't. So I have primary regulators on both my CO2 and my N2 cylinders. Both cylinders connect to respective inputs on the blender, then the output of the blender connects to a secondary regulator which I have set to ~35 PSI. Hopefully that makes sense. One nice feature of the blenders is they automatically shut off if you run out of one gas, so you don't run the risk of accidentally pushing straight CO2 or straight N2.

Yesfan said:

I just swapped out my co2 tanks and was asking the guy if he also had beergas. I was asking him the smallest tanks just to get an idea of the pricing. Apparently, they don't carry beargas much anymore and just have straight N2. Where I live, we only have one craft beer pub, and that guy using a mixing regulator which the sales more or less recommended. So, after doing some reading here I still have some questions.

I do have a stout tap. I also have a spare co2 reg somewhere (if I can find it). That's all I have now, so...


1) Can I use straight N2 with my co2 regulator and stout tap or does it have to be 75/25 beergas??

2) What about buying a mixing regulator (if there is such a thing)? I see gas blenders on sites like Micromatic, but they are far north of $500! Some of the cheaper ones look like a simple barbed Tee for $35.

3) Is beergas just the "lazy man's" approach to nitro beers? Instead of mixing it yourself (or using pure N2), you can buy it already mixed in a tank.

4) How is Beergas and N2 measured? Cubic feet? Pounds? What's recommended for 1-2 keg setup?

5) Can you bottle nitro beers? I bottle my beer from the keg, so is that process the same with a nitro setup?



I was under the impression that all I needed to do for a nitro setup was carb up a beer as I'd normally do if it was going to stay on co2. But then after it's carbed up, I would push that beer with N2 by using the N2 tank, co2 regulator set 3-4 times higher than co2 serving pressure, and then good to go. I thought the only thing different with nitro vs co2 was what was pushing the beer out of the keg.

I'm kinda confused on beergas vs N2. I know the differences between them as far as what they both are (beer gas is a 75/25 split blend of N2 and co2, respectively), but which for which setup is what I'm wondering about.


I'd like to have a nitro setup, but if it's going to be a few hundred dollars just to have one or two kegs on nitro, then I have to wonder if it's going to be worth it or if I should spend that money on something more important towards my brewery.

Click to expand...

Alternatively, you don't need N2 to get Nitro effect. Just raise the pressure of CO2 to push through the constrictor plate and then lower/vent it a bit after you served it, to reduce risk of over-carbing. The bubbles contain almost no N2, the effect of Nitro head is entirely due to small bubbles created by turbulence which require fairly low carbonation of beer and high pressure for pushing it through.

There's more to a nitro-dispensed pour than that.
A lower acid bite with finer, more persistent bubbles leads to that prototypical smooth mouthfeel that is the hallmark of the right beer on nitro.
I really don't think any straight CO2 system can mimic much of that...

Cheers!

day_trippr said:

There's more to a nitro-dispensed pour than that.
A lower acid bite with finer, more persistent bubbles leads to that prototypical smooth mouthfeel that is the hallmark of the right beer on nitro.
I really don't think any straight CO2 system can mimic much of that...

Cheers!

Click to expand...

Can you explain the physics of what's different?

Brew on

Which part - the lack of CO2 bite, or the finer, more persistent bubbles?

Cheers!

day_trippr said:

Which part - the lack of CO2 bite, or the finer, more persistent bubbles?

Cheers!

Click to expand...

Not to mention, who wants to turn their CO2 up, pour, turn their CO2 back down and vent the keg every pour? Not me.

day_trippr said:

Which part - the lack of CO2 bite, or the finer, more persistent bubbles?

Cheers!

Click to expand...

Both. Call me Dion

Brew on

microbusbrewery said:

Not to mention, who wants to turn their CO2 up, pour, turn their CO2 back down and vent the keg every pour? Not me.

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I certainly don't advocate modulating CO2 pressure as a routine course of action. I just want to know what is "magic" about pushing beer with N2 that instills such mystical qualities in the beer. And, I want the explanation based on solid physics fundamentals. I can't explain why pushing with N2 should be any different than pushing with CO2 (as long as pressure isn't high enough, long enough to increase carb level), and I have not seen anyone else provide an explanation either.

Brew on

doug293cz said:

I certainly don't advocate modulating CO2 pressure as a routine course of action. I just want to know what is "magic" about pushing beer with N2 that instills such mystical qualities in the beer. And, I want the explanation based on solid physics fundamentals. I can't explain why pushing with N2 should be any different than pushing with CO2 (as long as pressure isn't high enough, long enough to increase carb level), and I have not seen anyone else provide an explanation either.

Brew on

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Google "science of nitro beers" or something similar. There's quite a few articles out there.

microbusbrewery said:

Google "science of nitro beers" or something similar. There's quite a few articles out there.

Click to expand...

Been there, done that. Haven't found anything that meets the standard of fundamental physics based. If you have any specific links, I'm all eyes.

Brew on

You can indeed enjoy the benefits of a nitro pour by carbing to 1 volume (needle barely off the peg on the CO2 regulator gauge) and then boosting the pressure when serving finally dropping it back down to about 1 atm at the conclusion of the evening. Bit of a PITA but then the expense of a blender, having to buy nitrogen as well as CO2, the extra plumbing etc. is a bit of a PITA too. I have seen articles that say you must have dissolved nitrogen for the full effect but I'm a bit skeptical as nitrogen isn't very soluble and a bursting nitrogen bubble on the tongue does not have the same effect as a bursting CO2 bubble. I am guessing that a double blind triangle test wouldn't result in very spectacular differentiation. Put another way, I'm guessing that you get 95% of the benefit with the CO2 only technique.

If you draw stout frequently i.e. keep it on tap then the blender is the way to go for sure (and I use one) but if you only occasionally want a glass of stout I think the CO2 method is fine (which is what I do when I am not pouring it that often or if I run out of N2).

Even at 95% of the benefit, I think I would rather splurge on the blender, plumbing, and N2 tank. That's just me though. I just don't like the idea of fiddling with the gas pressure every time I want a nitro brew.


The good thing? I want nitro, but I'm not dying to have it either. After reading the info you guys have gave me (thank you all very much btw!), I'm even less gun-ho into wanting it. It's still on my list of wants, but just dropped a few spots.

I think time is going to be on my side and those "co2 only" stouts are still going to be pretty tasty til I find a nice deal on a used gas blender. I think once that purchase is made, the rest should fall in place.



Thanks everyone for the advice!

doug293cz said:

Been there, done that. Haven't found anything that meets the standard of fundamental physics based. If you have any specific links, I'm all eyes.

Brew on

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Nitrogen has actually nothing to do with the "nitro head", size of the bubbles or their stability.
If you think about the keg design and the fact that the nitrogen is essentially not soluble in beer (100 times less soluble than CO2) then you can quickly realize that while nitrogen pushes the beer through, the bubbles of the foam contain entirely CO2 that precipitates from the solution.

The reason why nitrogen is needed is because you need to accomplish two goals:

1. Have beer being pushed through small openings/diaphragm/constriction plate - call it what you want - which has to be done at high enough pressure, maybe 20-30 psi - to cause enough turbulence and precipitate CO2 out

2. have beer at low CO2 content/volume, below 2 volumes, maybe even as low as 1 volume. So that when head forms, the remaining beer has no CO2 bite left.

If you use CO2 and leave it at 20 or 30 psi for a day or more - it will overcarb the beer. So people use a mix of Nitrogen and CO2 - it has to be carbed to low volume from CO2 but pushed at high pressure of Nitrogen + CO2.

What you push on the beer with actually doesn't matter - you could design a piston to do this job, or use argon or other inert gas that is not water soluble (like Yuri did - search around in this forum).

Bottom line - there is ZERO nitrogen gas in your "nitro pour" (aside from surrounding air if you want to be pedantic).

increasing the pressure for serving and dialing it back down after you poured a few pints and done for the night is not that complicated or labor intensive - and much more versatile than buying separate tank of beer gas. Besides you can dial in your process - which is impossible or difficult to do by changing beer gas composition.

I have primary regulator set to ~20 psi (mostly used for force-carbing of newly transferred kegs and carbonation caps for plastic bottles), and secondary (as well as tertiary) regulators below 10, usually around 5-7 psi. So when I serve using nitro faucet I use primary regulator connection, after I am done, I purge the pressure a bit (takes 2-3 seconds or so) and swap back to secondary or tertiary regulator - and then often even disconnect that after a few seconds, to avoid overcarbing.

It's fine to leave it at high pressure for a few minutes and even an hour, beer takes a lot longer to force-carb, as we all know. So no reason to reconnect it after every single pour, if you plan to have more than one. No reason to change regulator pressure either, as long as you have more than one regulator.

The beer served this way (if the processed dialed in properly) is indistinguishable from nitro beer - same cascading bubbles, same milky soft taste, great foam stability, tiny bubbles etc. Why wouldn't it be - it's the same physics.

55x11 said:

...

The beer served this way (if the processed dialed in properly) is indistinguishable from nitro beer - same cascading bubbles, same milky soft taste, great foam stability, tiny bubbles etc. Why wouldn't it be - it's the same physics.

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Thanks for the confirmation that the pour is indistinguishable. That is what I believed would be the case, but I have no first hand experience with stout faucets. The physics and gas solubility stuff I already knew.

There are still lots of folks who think the bubbles are nitrogen, and there is something special about pushing with nitrogen, that can't be duplicated with CO2.

Brew on

doug293cz said:

Thanks for the confirmation that the pour is indistinguishable. That is what I believed would be the case, but I have no first hand experience with stout faucets. The physics and gas solubility stuff I already knew.

There are still lots of folks who think the bubbles are nitrogen, and there is something special about pushing with nitrogen, that can't be duplicated with CO2.

Brew on

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a little bit of thinking about the process and it's clear that basically no nitro makes it to your "nitro" beer. It's merely a delivery agent that pushes on beer from outside without overcarbing it.

I will try to make a movie of the pour with cascading tiny bubbles and milky frosty foam on top that results. But by taste it's indistinguishable too.