Extract beer keeps getting sweet. WHY?

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rayzor

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Beerdrinker from Norway having problems with a beer that is too sweet.

I won't ramble on forever, so I'll just tell you all what my usual recipes are:

In my beers I use:
3kg of liquid malt extract (unhopped)
1kg of cane sugar.
Hops

Boil:
I only boil for 30min (adding hops accordingly to reach the desired bitterness, flavor and aroma). Adds sugar and 50% of the extract 10min before flameout.

Bitterness, taste and aroma is not the problem.

Fermentation:
The batch usually ferments for 2 weeks...until the bubbling stops.
I never take a gravity reading...so, the problem might be a to high final gravity?

Hmmm, what else...I usually use a high attenuation yeast.

Could boiling the extract make the beer sweeter?
Could using too much cane sugar be the problem?
Should I ferment longer...letting the yeast "clean up", before bottling?

Please help!
 
I would definitely recommend taking some readings to see what kind of FG's you are getting in order to troubleshoot this. Also I know you said bitterness is not the problem, but since it directly affects the perception of sweetness can you post a whole recipe? How big of a boil are you doing and what is the final batch volume after topping off if you do so? Boiling extract in a small volume can cause some unwanted flavors that I suppose could be perceived as sweet, though you should be counteracting that with the late addition and shorter boil. Cane sugar should not contribute sweetness to the beer as it should ferment out fully.
 
Your yeast and fermentation temperature may be a problem. The amount and type of yeast pitched combined with unstable fermentation temperatures can cause problems like yours.

Tracking the specific gravity can help show where the problem is.
 
Please post at least a couple recipes including what liquid extract you used and the hops and hop amounts. It will help finding where the problem lies.

No, boiling the extract isn't the problem. No, adding the sugar to the wort before fermentation isn't the problem. There isn't a definitive answer to the fermenting longer. Unless you are trying to ferment too cold the yeast would normally be done and cleaned up well before the 2 weeks but without a hydrometer reading it is hard to tell if that is the problem or if you are simply creating an unbalanced beer that you perceive to be too sweet.
 
Beers that are "too sweet" are oftentimes simply underbittered. I'd try increasing the boil size and increasing the length of the boil for more hops utilization so that the beer is better balanced.
 
I learned very quickly that a hydrometer is your friend and made sure I got one in my first brewing kit. If you want the ability to predict and anticipate your alcohol content, I'd recommend a wine thief and hydrometer as two of your best investments.
 
If I were you, I would try the same recipe but double the boil time (60 minutes) and adjust your hop rate accordingly (same amount of hops, just instead of 30 minutes, 15 minutes, 5 minutes, etc....have it 60, 30, 15...)

30 minutes, IMO is too short a boil time to fully utilize the hops. The shortest boil time I have done is 45 minutes because I wanted a less pronounced hop character for my dunkleweizens.

I can't speak on the hydrometer issue because I don't use one; I have never had a beer that I felt was too sweet but I also brew lower-gravity beers and don't rush fermentation. You brewing for two weeks should not be an issue for most beers.

Since stated you bottle condition, it is most likely the under-utilization of hop bitterness because too much residual sugar could lead to over-carbonation, which you did not mention in your post.
 
I'm going to blame the recipe - I want to see some FG readings. I'm guessing they finished high. Extract brews often stall out at 1.020 anyway, but it sounds like the OP's batches are finishing even higher than that.
 
Sorry for the late reply. Been busy. Thanks for the amount of response.

I made this brew from a kit. Muntons Gold Continental Pilsner. Used a different ale yeast with high attenuation(in an attempt to make it less sweet). I did as instructed, but added maybe 1 oz of cascade (15minutes) which I had laying around. Plus the extra sugar.

The taste got better and got less sweet as the days went. Had a bbq with friends this weekend and now the whole brew is gone ;-) And the guys didn't complain about the taste, so what do I know ;-)

My current brew has been brewing for a little over two weeks now. IPA. Again from a kit. This time I used a hydrometer, and the OG was 1.048. Today the FG was 1.001...but the "problem" is...the airlock is still bubbling. Maybe every 20sec. The kit told me to rack at 1.009. So, WHAT IS HAPPENING?
 
I'm actually "enjoying" a cloudy sample right now. Not bad, but it tastes a little different than my other brews. A little too malty if I have to describe it. A common taste for some of the cheaper beers here in Norway.

If there's an infection, what would it taste like, how strong, and how fast would it be noticeable?
 
if your OG was 1.048 and your current gravity is 1.001, then typically I'd say you have an issue. However, the problem here is you use sugar. where as malt is about 75% fermentable, sugar is 100%, so that screws with the numbers. From a 1.048 I'd expect a 1.012 +/- depending on yeast.

Infections. Generally they taste sour. More and more as time goes on. I've had a few that were that way, and an sour/lemon flavor is the best way to describe all I've had, although since they are a bit bacteria dependent, and that is regionally dependent, it might not be the same where you are.

3.3KG pluse 1KG of sugar. Assume 19 (5.5 gallons) of wort... becoming 5 gallons of beer. -your OG wasn't 1.048.. it should have been closer to 1.068 if you had 19L (5 gallons US). I mean 3KG of malt should have gotten you to about 1.044. (so 1.048 is close enough given I may have the points of malt off a bit, or the water level different) but that neglects the sugar. I would blame that on a poor mix of top off water. I once had a wort come in at about 1/2 what it should have. Poor mixing during set up.

The 1.009 seems like it is correct expectation - the 1.044 by 75% goes to 1.011 but sugar in it ferments all the way, and alcohol is less dense, so a 1.009 is possible, or even lower. A 1.001 is not likely. But I don't know the numbers to do the partial densities on that one.

I hate to suggest you miss read the hydrometer, but that is a possibility.

As for CO2 still coming out. Infection is possible. If you're experiencing a weather change where you had high pressure for a few day followed by low pressure, that could cause out gassing. And so could temp changes. I think CO2 comes out as it gets warmer. take a reading at least 24 hours after the last one, and let us know.
 
It's not sour in taste. More bitter caramel, with a hint of orange. But that's the hops I think.

For it to be infected it's pretty good tasting. Maybe I'll label it Infectious IPA :p

I had a sample a few days after pitching just for kicks, and it tasted about the same as is does now.

The temperature has changed dramatically in only a few days here. A couple of weeks with clouds and rain, and with a temperature around 5Celsius, suddenly turned to full sun and 25celsius.
 
Have you checked the calibration on your hydrometer? 1.048 and 1.001 both sound suspiciously low (unless this was a session IPA kit for that OG). I think measurement error, calibration error, etc. are more likely at this point if it is tasting fine.
 
Checked the hydrometer.

It showed 0.996 in plain water which had a temp of 72.3fahrenheit.

Thanks for the advice.
 
Checked the hydrometer.

It showed 0.996 in plain water which had a temp of 72.3fahrenheit.

Thanks for the advice.

IIRC, the correction from 60F to ~73 F is 2 points plus the 4 points below 1.000 gives you +6, or changing your numbers from 1.048 to 1.054 and 1.001 to 1.007.

Still the 1.054 seems low, but again I'm assuming 19L (5 gal US) of wort and if you mixed poorly from a partial boil (ie didn't boil all your wort, but filled up) the wort initially will be stratified into a less dense over more dense. As it ferments, there is a lot of mixing and the yeast will get it all chewed up.


EDIT as pointed out in next comment by Chickypad, I did the math the wrong direction on the correction. a .996 in 72F would add at least 2F making it a .998, not .994 ....
 
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IIRC, the correction from 60F to ~73 F is 2 points plus the 4 points below 1.000 gives you +6, or changing your numbers from 1.048 to 1.054 and 1.001 to 1.007.

It's the other way around, isn't it? He's taking the reading at 72 so if calibrated to 60* he would need to add pts to the .996 reading so it would be reading .998 or 2 pts low not 6 pts low in plain water. Actually on my table it would be a 1 pt correction at 72*. Of course it could be calibrated to 68* too, meaning it's a wash and just reads 4 pts low.
 
It's the other way around, isn't it? He's taking the reading at 72 so if calibrated to 60* he would need to add pts to the .996 reading so it would be reading .998 or 2 pts low not 6 pts low in plain water. Actually on my table it would be a 1 pt correction at 72*. Of course it could be calibrated to 68* too, meaning it's a wash and just reads 4 pts low.

iirc, you measure and add the points in, so a .996 would be a real of .998.... right I did the math backwards. so he .002 of on each end, not .006.... and again the FG then seems off for 1.003 would still be to low if the start were 1.050 even with 1/4 of the fermentables as sugar.

and a 1.050 is low for 4kg (8.8lb ) of fermentables.
 
Thanks ACbrewer. That cleared a lot of things in my head.

The batch was a 22liter. I didn't boil the extract, only mixed the extract in 3l of boiling water. I boiled the sugar though. The problem might be that I didn't mix it up well enough.

Well, we all learn as we go, and now I feel a little bit more Einsteiny when it comes to brewing ;-)

A final question on my next brew. I was thinking a Double IPA. Is there something I just HAVE TO DO when it comes to a DIPA? Something that is not that necessary during a normal brew that is. More yeast? ...because of the extra sugar, or is it enough to add some yeast nutrient...if at all? I hate sweet beer so I will do anything to prevent that.

For a 20liter batch I was thinking 4.5kg of extract and 1kg of sugar (any comments on cane sugar? 90% cheaper than corn over here!)

For hops I'm using Warrior with (16) for bittering and cascade (7) for taste and aroma. Comments on hop choice?

A hate long boils, so I stick with a half hour boil(cost of extra hops in mind).
Boil size is 7liters, so I add most of the extract 10min before burnout, so the hop utilization would be a bit skewered, using a calculator.

Anyway...

IBU READINGS (brewersfriend.com)
On a 7l boil (1.85gallons) the IBU readings ends up at a total of 20.5
On a 15l boil (same amount of hops and time) the IBU readings would be 65

Should I add more bittering hops to my 7l boil?
Remember, sweet beer is my evil! It haunts my brewy dreams.

I just bought a Nøgne Ø Imperial IPA here in good old Norway. 10% with 100IBU's. I love that beer, but still...a little too much on the sweet side.

Would sprinkling a LITTLE champagne yeast fix my problems? :p

Thanks for all your help guys
 
Sugar - cane or corn - thins the beer (less mouth feel)** boost alcohol, seems to get more fusal or 'hot' or boozy tasting alcohol. Usually I aim for about 10% maybe 15%. others have differing opinions, as do recipes.

If you are saying a 10% with 100IBU's is to sweet for you, you might have an over sensitivity to sugar taste. The beer says it is a 23.5deg beer, or that makes and OG of about 1.099. At 10% ABV it finished about 1.022. That's about right, so it is going to have a strong alcohol dryness plus IPA, at 100 IBU (which is crazy as at some point people saturate their taste buds).

Do other things seem sweet? Is a Bordeaux or other dry wine to sweet? Are there any beers you do like?

Hope utilization - how much alpha acid- the bittering stuff - you get from the hops. Longer boils do get better hop utilization, and fuller boils get better hop utilization, and putting some - although not all - malt in the start of the boil helps with hop utilization. So put in say .5kg of malt into the boil at the start, that will help.


** mouth feel - thick like a glass of whole milk, thin, like water
 
After a few of my brews turned sweet, then yes, I've become over sensitive to sweetness. My mind looks for it unconsciously, just like when you've had a few bad relationships, and you automatically look for those same faults in the next one. Like I said earlier, my friends thought the beer turned out great...so, yes, I'm over sensitive...and/or a perfectionist when it comes to brewing ;-)

And I can't stand sweets, and just a bite or two of chocolate. So, the problem might be me, and not the brew ;-)

Again, would A LITTLE champagne yeast do my beer good, or destroy it?
 
ok, well the champagne yeast might be able to dry it out. It is always a crap shoot. Sometimes it will bring the FG down, sometimes not. Adding Champagne will either lower the FG, or not. It is extremely unlikely to make the beer worse than it is. So it is worth a try but it may not help.

You best is to have ferment go right. this includes making starters for best pitching numbers, using new, not repitching from prior batch, temp control during ferment, etc. This will bring the FG down to the lowest level of the yeasts ability to ferment it. if you truly had a 1.003ish beer that is probably about as low as you can get it from a starting point of 1.050. Even with champagne yeast.
Any yeast will eat the easy sugars first, and the hard ones later so first any single rings (glucose, fructose, etc) then more complicated like maltose and surcrose. Malt extract has some starches still in it and or long sugars which is the residual sweetness we taste in beer (ie to big for yeast to digest.) With champagne yeast, it can't really handle the more complex sugars that even beer yeast can because it is breed for eating grape juice - single ring glucose and fructose. This is why it can get a stuck ferment down sometimes and sometimes not. All about what sugars are in solution.
If you were an all grain brewer, there are ways of getting more conversion from starches down to sugars. But as an extract brewer you are at the whims of the malter. The solution to that is two fold. 1. Use less malt, put in more sugar. While this will ferment out more, leaving less residual compounds, it will also thin the beer and leave you more open to fusal alcohol formation which is what gives off a boozy or hot feeling. 2. use more hops and get more Alpha Acids as I detailed above. (some malt in the boil, longer boils, and more hops - also hops are rated for general AA%, choose a bittering hops with more AA% than others).
 
If your readings are really correct this is not an attenuation issue, which means throwing more yeast at it is not going to work. My understanding with champagne yeast is that it can only ferment the simple sugars in wort, not more complex sugars like maltotriose, so it doesn't usually work for stuck fermentation (which you don't appear to have anyway).

I'm thinking this is a recipe issue. Doing 30 min, small boils is going to reduce your IBU's as you noted in your previous post. I'm betting that you're beers are underbittered (do you have the full recipes of the ones you've done?).

The problem with trying to brew a DIPA is you're never going to reach DIPA levels of bittering topping off by 50%. The software may calculate that high, but there comes a point when you will max out on the IBU you can achieve in the boil (I've seen that quoted around 100 IBU). That means topping off is only going to get you to around 50. I'd consider decreasing your batch size, getting a bigger pot, etc. and doing longer boils.
 
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