Too warm ferment flavors!

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AR-Josh

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First off this is more of a rant. There may be some questions within but I'm so frustrated.

When I started brewing I learned real quick what off fermentation flavors tasted like. I brewed several Mr Beer kits and non tasted good. I went to 5 gal batches and the first one was horrid. I later learned that it was the fermentation temp that was causing that cidery estery nasty flavor. If you had a stout and an IPA and fermented them way too warm...I think they'd taste the same....

So my next brew I accidentally got right. It was the dead of winter and i was just leaving the bucket in the basement to ferment. Then the next one was right. Then the next one (summer) got cidery again. Ah ha! I figured it out. I built a fermentation chamber with insulation foam and an old dorm fridge and never looked back. I had 2 years after that of steady good beer. Extract and all grain. Didn't matter.

2 years ago I had a sewer backup and it killed my fermentation chamber and fridge. So I thought I'd upgrade to a chest freezer. My love controller for the first chamber was still fine. Once I got the chest freezer up and running I made one or two beers in it that seemed fine. Then the next was bad. I couldnt' figure it out and ended up dumping it. Then the next one.....then the next one....then one would be right......then the next bad.

I have a 4 tap keezer that I used to keep full. I can't get one of the taps going now. I thought upgrading to the chest freezer for fermenting would be the best thing.....I guess not. I think I just had the last straw break my back. I made a quick 15 minute boil APA from the recipe forum. I kept the freezer at 62 the whole time. At 4 weeks it tasted good. Here I am at kegging time and it just got dumped cause of the cidery flavor. 8 weeks in primary. The first four were fine. Something then happened between when I tested it at 4 weeks and today. The freezer has been on the whole time. The temp set to 62 I don't get it.

I wanted to upgrade my all grain setup but I don't know now. I just cant seem to make a good beer anymore. I might just get rid of the freezer and find a dorm fridge. Maybe I'll go back to foam and a dorm fridge. That never failed me before and I even successfully lagered in that setup.

Sorry for the rant. Feel free to comment.
 
I am a new brewer, but perhaps this will be one of those elementary dear Watson moments for you the beer Sherlock. I was thinking a couple of things when I read your rant. One was that after the initial fermentation I hear a lot of guys saying they raise the temp to finish the beer for a couple weeks before kegging. Also, you mention that you had it in the primary for 8 weeks, which my novice knowledge says is too long unless you are making barleywines. Other than that, since you know you are spot on for fermentation temps, maybe look at other aspects of your brewing. Good luck, I hope that I don't end up fighting a bad run like that in my brewing future. I really feel for you.
 
8 wk primary is entirely too long especially for a simple APA. You should have kegged it at week 4. If you are controlling your ferment temps with temp controlled chamber then there's no way ferment temps are creating your off flavors. It's either infection or its autolysis of the yeast bc you're leaving it on the cake way too long (if 8 wk primary is your norm) or its water related (pH, sulfate levels, chloride levels, etc...). Do you have more detail re: your process?
 
Eeeezy there big fella...lets just take a deep breath. Now, why don't we come back inside where it's warm...it's awfully windy out here on this ledge and a guy could slip and hurt himself real bad......there....now isn't that better?

Wild speculation .. But could the most recent ciders stuff be an infection of some kind? It would be my first guess.....maybe do a bleach bomb of everything...maybe some new hoses....clean your kettle valves...give that chiller an extra hard cleaning.....extra scoop of oxy clean in buckets....go crazy!
 
8 wk primary is entirely too long especially for a simple APA. You should have kegged it at week 4. If you are controlling your ferment temps with temp controlled chamber then there's no way ferment temps are creating your off flavors. It's either infection or its autolysis of the yeast bc you're leaving it on the cake way too long (if 8 wk primary is your norm) or its water related (pH, sulfate levels, chloride levels, etc...). Do you have more detail re: your process?

I don't think it's autolysis. Palmer says if you ever taste it you'll know. Apparently it's gaggingly horrid. :(

But maybe I'll try that. Though I believe I've let them sit that long before and had no ill effects. At this point I'll try most anything.
 
Eeeezy there big fella...lets just take a deep breath. Now, why don't we come back inside where it's warm...it's awfully windy out here on this ledge and a guy could slip and hurt himself real bad......there....now isn't that better?

Wild speculation .. But could the most recent ciders stuff be an infection of some kind? It would be my first guess.....maybe do a bleach bomb of everything...maybe some new hoses....clean your kettle valves...give that chiller an extra hard cleaning.....extra scoop of oxy clean in buckets....go crazy!

I thought that too. So I bought new buckets and hoses and canned all the older stuff.
 
I don't think it's autolysis. Palmer says if you ever taste it you'll know. Apparently it's gaggingly horrid. :(

But maybe I'll try that. Though I believe I've let them sit that long before and had no ill effects. At this point I'll try most anything.

Totally agree, I've had a couple big beers (tripel and a RIS) I left in primary for b/w 4-6 wks with no ill effect and there's plenty of others on here that have gone longer with no ill effects but 8 wks is really excessive for a pale ale. Like I said, if it's not autolysis then it's an infection that's taking place. In your recent beer it was most likely infected...either didn't become infected until after the 4wk tasting or was already infected and just not noticeable until the 8 wk taste. Either clean the hell out of everything or try a new fermenter with new siphon hose, etc...I feel your frustration though. If every beer is bad is one thing, but to have some great ones followed by a crappy one is so much more annoying. Good luck!
 
I lost three 5 gallon batches in a row once, then I figured out it was my wort chiller that had hop resin on it that pbw wasn't taking off. I realized the batches I boiled chiller last 15 min were fine but soaked in star san ones were bad. I would very meticulously look at equipment. Other than that I have no idea why good at 4 weeks then bad.
 
Autolysis of yeast is incredibly rare for homebrewers. We just don't have the conditions that cause it. Our fermenters are small so we can't create the pressure on the yeast nor with our small volumes can we get the yeast to overheat itself.
 
Well, still just speculating but I'm still thinking a bug of some kind...somewhere....maybe it's in the keezer even. I would do a very simple IPA as a "control". I would just clean like I've never cleaned before....fresh sanitizer...fresh pack of yeast...fresh ingredients..RO water ... Tear down your keg and faucets.... Keep it simple but be hyper OCD about every step.

Hopefully this will at least confirm that you can make good beer again....from there it's just a matter of maintaining your process

I'll put a candle in my window for you tonight.....
 
My guess is that while 8 weeks in primary isn't excessively long enough to create autolysis, it is long enough (especially if there is a lot of headspace) to allow oxidation and/or infection once it has been opened at 4 weeks to take a taste and a sample.

It sat four more weeks after opening, and that makes it risky unless it's in a carboy with little to no headspace.

Oxidation causes some "sherry" like flavors, while infection can create band aid type flavors or some tart/sour notes, or even flavors like dirty socks smell.
 
When the OP describes a "cidery" off-flavor, I'm wondering if he means the vinegar-like flavor one gets from an Acetobacter infection.

You may want to replace things like siphon hoses, fermenter buckets and any other vinyl or plastic item coming into contact with the product once the wort is chilled. Any components like keg posts that can be boiled, do that too.
 
When the OP describes a "cidery" off-flavor, I'm wondering if he means the vinegar-like flavor one gets from an Acetobacter infection.

You may want to replace things like siphon hoses, fermenter buckets and any other vinyl or plastic item coming into contact with the product once the wort is chilled. Any components like keg posts that can be boiled, do that too.

No not vinegar.
 
My guess is that while 8 weeks in primary isn't excessively long enough to create autolysis, it is long enough (especially if there is a lot of headspace) to allow oxidation and/or infection once it has been opened at 4 weeks to take a taste and a sample.

It sat four more weeks after opening, and that makes it risky unless it's in a carboy with little to no headspace.

Oxidation causes some "sherry" like flavors, while infection can create band aid type flavors or some tart/sour notes, or even flavors like dirty socks smell.

Problem is I've never had sherry. So I can't peg the flavor to see if it is that.

I did another experiment. The only equipment used that wasn't brand new and really freaking clean was my boil kettle and metal stirring spoon. The rest (big mouth carboy, thief, and air lock) were all new.

As per usual I got busy so I got this one in the carboy to ferment with dry us05 sprinkled on top at 64 degrees. It took a day or two but then took off. It was in my chest freezer controlled by a love temp controller for the whole time set on 60 degrees. At 4 weeks I looked at it but didnt' open it. It had stopped fermenting and was starting to clear. I was busy so I turned the temp on the love controller to 64. I was supposed to dry hop this recipe and I wanted to wait until I had enough time for everything. Well, today 4/29 is when I got to it. The dry hops never went in because I tested it and it had that off flavor in it again.

So oxidation might not be the cause. I doubt it has anything to do with sitting in my chest freezer held at temp. I'm about stumped. The only thing I can think to do is use another boil kettle and keg it at 4 weeks hell or high water. :confused::confused::confused:
 
I have lost beer to a dirty valve and to different hoses for sparge and serving lines and also to a 3 piece airlock and bung. 64 is cooler than what most people keep that yeast at. The placement of the temp probe is important as it needs to be against the carboy or bucket and insulated from the outside. You need to get others to taste the bad beer and have them describe the flavors as it can help others to diagnose what is happening.:)
 
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