Dark Sour ideas (my first sour)

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hopsandhops

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I've been reading and thinking about jumping into wild brewing for awhile. I've found that I really like dark sours with dark fruit and wine and oak notes. Recently I had a Boulevard Love Child #5 and that has me motivated. I used themadfermentationist's recipe for Flanders Red Again for the base recipe, but scaled it up and added dextrose to get it in the 8.5-9% range, like the Love Child #5. I know the grain bill is probably more complex than it needs to be, but it comes from the Flanders Red Again recipe. I'm not shooting for a particular style, just an American Dark Sour.

6 gallons
OG 1.074
FG 1.007ish?
IBU 7.6
SRM 20

5 lbs Vienna
4 lbs Munich
4 lbs Pils
1 lb 5 oz Caramunich I
1 lb 5 oz Flaked Wheat
13 oz CaraAroma
5 oz C10
4 oz C40
12 oz Dextrose

.25 oz Magnum @ 60

I'm leaning towards either Wyeast's Roeselare blend or The Yeast Bay's Melange blend into the primary without a starter.

I'll give it 3-4 weeks in the primary and then rack to a glass carboy with an oz of oak of some type that has been soaked in red wine of some type to age for 12-18 months.

I've also toyed with the idea of splitting the batch and using both of those blends to see how they compare, but that would require aging them in half full glass carboys, thus leaving a lot of headspace. I have a kegging setup, so I could flush with CO2 and "top off" with CO2.

Thoughts, suggestions, experiences?
 
I would use the Melange, if you had to pick one. Roe has a reputation for not being very sour or complex on the first pitch. Or if you do pitch the Roe, plan on pitching some commercial dregs in secondary when you rack.

I brewed a recipe based on the Flanders Red from American Sour Beers, which looks slightly different from yours I think, and can attest that it's a great recipe. I'd drop the add'l sugar. Here's the grist I brewed (target OG 1.064):
26.6% Pilsner
26.6% Munich
26.6% Vienna
8% lb Wheat
4% lb Aromatic
4% lb Crystal 60
4% Special B

Splitting is one potential good idea, as you could blend the batch later on - you could rack into 3 gal carboys or BB's to minimize head space.
 
Thats too much caramalts for anything sour, at least to my tastes. Ive done a few dark sours. 3 of them were pitch black using debittered malts. Basically just took a good saison or tripel recipe of mine and worked some midnight wheat in. I didnt think on it too much and kept the simple sugar though. None of them turned out thin-bodied, but I think this is highly dependant on what souring stuff you are using.

Others Ive done were just a dubbel or something and used a sour blend in a secondary. IME, its the sour blend that is going to determine most of what you perceive in the beer.
 
I would use the Melange, if you had to pick one. Roe has a reputation for not being very sour or complex on the first pitch. Or if you do pitch the Roe, plan on pitching some commercial dregs in secondary when you rack.

I brewed a recipe based on the Flanders Red from American Sour Beers, which looks slightly different from yours I think, and can attest that it's a great recipe. I'd drop the add'l sugar. Here's the grist I brewed (target OG 1.064):
26.6% Pilsner
26.6% Munich
26.6% Vienna
8% lb Wheat
4% lb Aromatic
4% lb Crystal 60
4% Special B

Splitting is one potential good idea, as you could blend the batch later on - you could rack into 3 gal carboys or BB's to minimize head space.

That does look like a good recipe! I need to pick up that book.

I was thinking of adding the sugar instead of basemalt to bump the abv while still keeping a low FG. I've seen recipes that call for candi sugar, so I figured it would work.

As far as the Roeselare, I've seen the same, but it also seems to be a go to blend. As I'm thinking out the plan, I may do a split batch with those 2 blends and then brew another batch when it's time to rack and split that onto the two cakes. Then I'd have 4 relatively different brews to blend in a year or so.

@m00ps, did you get any dark fruit components without dark crystal?
 
I think Roe is a go to blend because it's easily available. Either way, I'd still plan to pitch some commercial dregs either right away or when racking, for added complexity.

Oh, and don't listen to m00ps, he only drinks saisons ;)

Edit: oh, and re: the candi sugar, I like more body in a Flanders, which is why I would leave it out. I mashed mine at 158 or 160 and FG after a year was still around 1.009, even with a plethora of commercial sour dregs chomping away.
 
I think Roe is a go to blend because it's easily available. Either way, I'd still plan to pitch some commercial dregs either right away or when racking, for added complexity.

Oh, and don't listen to m00ps, he only drinks saisons ;)

Edit: oh, and re: the candi sugar, I like more body in a Flanders, which is why I would leave it out. I mashed mine at 158 or 160 and FG after a year was still around 1.009, even with a plethora of commercial sour dregs chomping away.
Different strokes. I just brewed one a few weeks ago with a friend, using the Rare Barrell's red recipe, and we mashed for 90 minutes at 146. Pitched onto a fresh cake, though, so I wasn't too concerned about leaving anything for the bugs to eat.
 
I'm not really going for a Flanders Red, it just seemed like a good starting point for a grain bill. Compared to Rodenbach Grand Cru, I'm trying for more sour and less sweet. I was going to mash around 154-155

Has anyone had Boulevard's Love Child #5?
 
@m00ps, did you get any dark fruit components without dark crystal?

Maybe not dark fruit, but all my black sours end up with a predominant sour cherry flavor. The ones that I did before I started keeping a souring blend I just used a bunch of commercial dregs pitched into a secondary.

I did have a brown colored BSDA which ended up souring accidently. Added my sour blend to make sure there was some brett in there to clean up stuff and to salvage it. This had a bit of special B in it, but the sour character pretty much took over the raisiny/toffee flavors. Still too young to tell if i like it more than the previous dark sours ive done though
 
If you use Roe, then order some straight Pediococcus and propagate it per the Wyeast advice (it's in the MTF wiki under Pediococcus), just be sure to lower the pH of your starter wort to 4.5 to inhibit Clostridium and enteric bug contamination. From what I understand, it seems that the pitch count on the souring bacteria is really low in Roe (and most other commercial blends), which causes them to perform poorly in that regard on the first pitch, with re-pitches producing much more sour results.
 
If I just pitch the Roe, will it just be tart? And subsequent pitches will get more and more sour?

What about the Melange blend?

Are there better blends to use for this style?

I'm trying to avoid buying 2-3 packs of yeast and bacteria for my first try
 
If I just pitch the Roe, will it just be tart? And subsequent pitches will get more and more sour?

I've heard of many people seeing almost no perceivable souring at all on the first batch. I'd make a starter, myself. Let it go a good 10-14 days to maximize your Pedio cell count, then brew your beer and pitch. Or pitch Sacc, feed the starter again, let it go for another week, and pitch it when the bubbles get slow.
 
I've heard of many people seeing almost no perceivable souring at all on the first batch. I'd make a starter, myself. Let it go a good 10-14 days to maximize your Pedio cell count, then brew your beer and pitch. Or pitch Sacc, feed the starter again, let it go for another week, and pitch it when the bubbles get slow.

So make a standard 1.037 gravity starter and let it go for 2 weeks to maximize the souring bacteria? Should I keep it warmer than usual to encourage the lacto?
 
I would use the Melange, if you had to pick one. Roe has a reputation for not being very sour or complex on the first pitch. Or if you do pitch the Roe, plan on pitching some commercial dregs in secondary when you rack.

I brewed a recipe based on the Flanders Red from American Sour Beers, which looks slightly different from yours I think, and can attest that it's a great recipe. I'd drop the add'l sugar. Here's the grist I brewed (target OG 1.064):
26.6% Pilsner
26.6% Munich
26.6% Vienna
8% lb Wheat
4% lb Aromatic
4% lb Crystal 60
4% Special B

Splitting is one potential good idea, as you could blend the batch later on - you could rack into 3 gal carboys or BB's to minimize head space.

Thanks for this recipe, I think I'm going to brew this up. I ordered the Roe and the Melange and I'm going to split the batch. I also ordered the Amalgamation brett blend and I'm going to split that into both carboys. I kept it to 3 IBU to help the lacto do it's thing.

I'll brew another recipe in a month or so and rack right onto the cakes. Sour project coming up! :rockin:

EDIT: I'll probably throw some dregs into the Roe batch also, to help it sour
 
Just was thinking, any thoughts on whether to add the Amalgamation blend during primary, or add once I've racked to secondary?

You cna do either way, but I usually do a secondary because I go from a 6/6.5 gal carboy into a 5gal to minimize headspace. Thats the key
 
You cna do either way, but I usually do a secondary because I go from a 6/6.5 gal carboy into a 5gal to minimize headspace. Thats the key

I'm definitely going to rack to a smaller carboy a month after brew day for long term aging, but I'm wondering when to add the Amalgamation brett blend.

Secondary or primary? Will it make a large difference? The primary blends I'm using have brett in them, I'm just adding the Amalgamation to increase complexity and fruitiness
 
nah, in terms of flavor it shouldnt matter. I've left sours on the primary cake for months too without issue.

Are you doing a starter for the Amalgamation? General notion is its not required, and may throw off the "balance" of the strains, but I would suggest one. It should get you more wild character faster and gives you good potential to harvest for future use. Those bugs can last a long time in the fridge
 
I'm definitely going to rack to a smaller carboy a month after brew day for long term aging, but I'm wondering when to add the Amalgamation brett blend.

Secondary or primary? Will it make a large difference? The primary blends I'm using have brett in them, I'm just adding the Amalgamation to increase complexity and fruitiness

It will probably make some difference. Can we tell you what difference it will make? Or if it will be noticeable? Probably not.

Since you're splitting the batch, try one in primary and one in secondary.
 
That's a good call. If I make a starter with it, I can step it up, add some to the first set of secondaries, and then decide what to do with the 2nd batch I brew. Aaaaand I can save some of it for future use.

Sometimes, the obvious is sitting right there in front of you and you need someone to help you see it lol.. Thanks guys! :mug:
 
Brewed this up Saturday, with a recipe similar to what @BGBC posted, but with 12 oz dextrose and 1 lb extra light DME. Came in under on mash efficiency and over on volume though, so I ended up with 3.5 gallons of 1.067 wort into each fermenter. Oxygenated and pitched around 72-75* and had a full krausen on the Melange batch within 5 hours!

I made a 700ml starter with the Melange and pitched that and the dregs of Cuvee Rene into one fermenter.

I popped the smack pack on the Roe 24 hours ahead of time and pitched that along with the dregs of Love Child #6, Jack's Abby Cranberry Sour and Jack's Abby Ninth Blend into the other.

Both were ripping along within 12-15 hours. Here's to waiting! :tank:
 
Racked these to 3 gallon BBs yesterday (added splash of Amalgamation brett blend starter to each BB) and racked a 2nd batch similar to the grain bill of Supplication into the fermenters (dumped 75% of trub first). 3.5 gallons into each carboy. OG 1.076/ 7 IBU. Fermentation activity within a of couple hours!

Sampled the first batch and was very happily surprised!

Roe (added dregs of Love Child #6, Jack's Abby Cranberry Sour, Jack's Abby Ninth Blend and Almanac Dogpatch Sour to the primary over the last 2 weeks)- 1.016- just tart; nice cherry thing going on; slight trace of rubber? Definitely has a Flanders Red flavor and character to it

Melange (added dregs of Oude Gueuze Cuvee Rene and Far West Vlaming to primary over the last two weeks)- 1.009- dramatically different than the Roe batch! Some dark crystal type malt sweetness. Much more sour; SMELLS sour

More updates as they come

:ban:
 
I just bottled a roselare with cuvee rene dregs and it's very sour as well. Must be some strong bugs in there.
 
Brewed the third and final batch for these fermentors and microflora population; a golden sour this time! Similar OG, IBU, etc.

Similar process as the last batch: rack "finished" batch into 3 gal PET carboys to age, dump most trub, rack fresh wort into fermentors. Two differences this time though: I think I dumped too much trub, because I had a 24+ hour delay vs 5-6. No worries, but noticeable. I also added a healthy amount of Amalgamation brett blend to the primary this time, instead of to the secondaries, like the first two.

Biggest surprise: the Melange blend was already sick/ropy after 3 weeks in primary! I was pretty thrilled to see that, we'll see how long it stays that way. The Roe batch was nicely tart, with a big cherry/sherry note

Also adding 1/3 oz of medium + toasted french oak cubes per 3 gal carboy for aging
 
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