Stirring?

After you have mixed your grains with the strike water and determined you are at proper mash temperature then covered everything up do you go back in and stir things during your 60 or 90 minute mash?

I do not solely because I've got an insulating system that only loses 1-2 degrees over 90 minutes and I feel that opening things up will just lose more heat and require additional flame so the stirring isn't worth it.

My question is: Does stirring help with extraction of the the sugars and increase efficiency? Am I better off just leaving things alone and keeping the heat consistent?

Thanks

I stir.

I stir like it owes me child support. I get 80%+ efficiency and love it. The temperature loss is fairly insignificant if even detectable compared to not stirring. I also find that after a long period at your target mash temperature, dropping some won't hurt anything. The enzyme composition you're after is already basically there, unless you're reeeaaally aiming for a high mash like 156 to get huge residual sugar.

For example, I doughed in way too hot once, stayed at 160*+ for 15 minutes, and I'd already basically screwed my wort. Ferment stopped at 1.040 and had to add amylase.

Thanks

So stirring may be more beneficial than maintaining my temp throughout the mash?

Do you stir on a schedule throughout the mash?

LostHopper said:

Do you stir on a schedule throughout the mash?

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I stir about every 20 minutes..

LostHopper said:

Thanks

So stirring may be more beneficial than maintaining my temp throughout the mash?

Do you stir on a schedule throughout the mash?

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I stir during the mash, every 20 minutes or so. I use a round igloo cooler and only lose a degree or so over the duration of a 60-75 minute mash.

I do batch sparges and stir those as well. I havent calculated the efficiency but it's obviously better when I stir as opposed to when I don't.

I have stirred some and not others. I have seen no difference in the results.

I never stir and always get 80-85% efficiency with my 10 gallon water cooler
Edit: that is aside from dough in and sparge.

+1 on every 20 minutes

On the other hand, I do not stir during the mash. I prefer to be lazy and lose less heat, too.

When the mash is done, however, I stir well. I do use full volume BIAB, so my mash is thin. I get between 75-85% conversion efficiency. If you think about it, what's the point of stirring multiple times? I've had several mashes where I had trouble measuring and keeping the temp stable, so I stirred multiple times. It never seemed to make a difference - it actually had no effect either positive or negative. So I stopped doing it once I got a handle on keeping the temp more stable.

The only times you need to stir are when doughing in and just prior to lautering. Additional stirring can speed up conversion somewhat. This works since the stirring gets the concentrated wort away from the grit surfaces, so that water can diffuse into the grits better to speed up more gelatinization. Completion of gelatinization is the primary controlling factor in getting complete conversion. Stir or don't, it's all personal preference. You may find you need to mash a little longer to get complete conversion if you don't stir as often. For a method to determine completion of conversion check out this page.

Brew on

I stir like a mad man at dough-in; I don't stir again until just before pulling the bag..

djt17 said:

I stir like a mad man at dough-in; I don't stir again until just before pulling the bag..

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Same here, and I get 100% conversion (within measurement error.)

Brew on

I BIAB and have added a 2-3 minute stir at about 30 minutes in on every mash in addition to a 5 minute stir at dough in. I have found that my efficiency is much more predictable now since adding this step, especially on higher gravity beers.

I stir a couple times during the mash because it makes me feel better. I have no idea if it really helps, but I imagine it can't hurt. Plus, I need to be fiddling with something while brewing...

I stir about every 15-20 minutes*, in part to make sure I have any clumps broken up, also because an online homebrewing course I took demonstrated stirring about that often. I often brew with Maris Otter as my base, and I mill 3 times (not sure if that is really necessary but that's what I've been doing since I bought my mill) so it does tend to clump on my as I stir my grains into the strike water.

*EDIT: I just went back and reviewed my Brewer's Best BIAB kit instructions, THAT's where I first was instructed to stir every 20 mins while checking temp.

RomanRider said:

I stir about every 15-20 minutes, in part to make sure I have any clumps broken up, also because an online homebrewing course I took demonstrated stirring about that often. I often brew with Maris Otter as my base, and I mill 3 times (not sure if that is really necessary but that's what I've been doing since I bought my mill) so it does tend to clump on my as I stir my grains into the strike water.

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I always make sure all clumps/dough balls are broken up during mash in. Have you found that new clumps form during the mash if none existed after mash in?

Brew on

RomanRider said:

I stir about every 15-20 minutes, in part to make sure I have any clumps broken up, also because an online homebrewing course I took demonstrated stirring about that often. I often brew with Maris Otter as my base, and I mill 3 times (not sure if that is really necessary but that's what I've been doing since I bought my mill) so it does tend to clump on my as I stir my grains into the strike water.

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Stir your grains in with a wire whisk. It breaks up the clumps much better than a spoon. I don't stir at all at 15 minutes because my conversion is done before that. I will leave the wort in the pot longer so I can extract all the flavor from the specialty grains as that seems to take longer but at 30 minutes I pull the bag out.

Milling your grains 3 times may not be helping much depending on how the mill is set. Think about a mill that is set so wide that the grains can just slip through. No matter how many times you run the grains through they won't get crushed any. With the smaller setting you might gain a bit with a second milling but I doubt that the third does much unless the mill gap is made smaller.

slym2none said:

I stir.

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You stir what? You posted your first ag brew today. So at the time of this post you hadnt even made an ag batch! This is why forum advice is questionable.

I stir the s..t out of the mash at the beginning and end cause like you don't want to lose heat

applescrap said:

You stir what? You posted your first ag brew today. So at the time of this post you hadnt even made an ag batch! This is why forum advice is questionable.

I stir the s..t out of the mash at the beginning and end cause like you don't want to lose heat

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Who's to say he wasn't doing partial mash?

RM-MN said:

Stir your grains in with a wire whisk. It breaks up the clumps much better than a spoon. I don't stir at all at 15 minutes because my conversion is done before that. I will leave the wort in the pot longer so I can extract all the flavor from the specialty grains as that seems to take longer but at 30 minutes I pull the bag out.

Milling your grains 3 times may not be helping much depending on how the mill is set. Think about a mill that is set so wide that the grains can just slip through. No matter how many times you run the grains through they won't get crushed any. With the smaller setting you might gain a bit with a second milling but I doubt that the third does much unless the mill gap is made smaller.

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I edited my original reply. My 1st few AG brews were from Brewer's Best BIAB kits, their instructions are to stir & check temp every 20 mins. The wire whisk idea is a good one - 1st thing my SWMBO mentioned when I asked her to stir while I poured grains in. I've done it a few times but sometimes forget to bring our kitchen whisk out to the garage, so I should shop for a nice big whisk just for my brewery.

Thanks for the input about the multiple milling. I left my mill at the default setting of 0.045" and I do see a difference on the 2nd milling but maybe you're right about the 3rd being not worth the energy without closing the gap.

I guess it may be different topic, but conversion is done before 15 mins? I've always read at least 60 mins mash & some longer, I believe even with simple recipes. Can you possibly provide a link to more info? I will search it out as well. I'm doing my simple IPA tomorrow so if I can just mash 15 mins and move on then so be it!

Thanks! Bob

^
As said before, milling 2x or 3x at a gap that's too wide is not better than milling once with the right gap for your mashing process. 0.045" is really wide! Small kernels, like wheat and rye and flaked goods will simply fall through wide gaps. For my cooler mash tun/batch sparge system, 0.030" for barley and 0.024" for wheat, rye, and flaked adjuncts works like a charm. 80-90% efficiency.

When stirring during the mash I easily lose 2-3 degrees by the time I close it back up. I usually leave the mash as is, but if I feel the need for intermediate stirring, I add a quart of boiling water* each time I stir. That brings me right back to where it should be.

*The amount of boiling water needed depends on the mash volume and things, so an empirically derived addition schedule or using a calculator can help.

I stir at dough in and at the end of the mash. I get complete conversion without stirring, so what's the point of stirring? It can only drop temps, which has the chance of changing the character of the beer. I can't think of a good reason to stir the mash.

Every video I watch online, I see people stir it far too long. If you are doing an infusion, and like to stir, then my advice is get in and get out. Stirring for 30 seconds is not going to be much better than 5.

IslandLizard said:

^
As said before, milling 2x or 3x at a gap that's too wide is not better than milling once with the right gap for your mashing process. 0.045" is really wide! Small kernels, like wheat and rye and flaked goods will simply fall through wide gaps. For my cooler mash tun/batch sparge system, 0.030" for barley and 0.024" for wheat, rye, and flaked adjuncts works like a charm. 80-90% efficiency.

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I guess I need to research mill gap settings. If you could provide any info where you arrived at those settings please share. Monster Hardware sets the gap at 0.045" and recommends starting there so that's what I did. It looks about the same size crush as when I had the LHBS mill grain before I bought my mill, but I realize that's very subjective. Wheat does not simply fall through, it gets crushed. With the current setting my 1/2" Bosch drill set to low gear has a difficult time getting started (maybe I need to check the brushes ). No need to mill flaked goods that I'm aware of, right? I add them on top of my milled grain before pouring into the mash.

RomanRider said:

I edited my original reply. My 1st few AG brews were from Brewer's Best BIAB kits, their instructions are to stir & check temp every 20 mins. The wire whisk idea is a good one - 1st thing my SWMBO mentioned when I asked her to stir while I poured grains in. I've done it a few times but sometimes forget to bring our kitchen whisk out to the garage, so I should shop for a nice big whisk just for my brewery.

Thanks for the input about the multiple milling. I left my mill at the default setting of 0.045" and I do see a difference on the 2nd milling but maybe you're right about the 3rd being not worth the energy without closing the gap.

I guess it may be different topic, but conversion is done before 15 mins? I've always read at least 60 mins mash & some longer, I believe even with simple recipes. Can you possibly provide a link to more info? I will search it out as well. I'm doing my simple IPA tomorrow so if I can just mash 15 mins and move on then so be it!

Thanks! Bob

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I think this is a good time to bring this up. There are a couple things that happen to your grain. First is that the starch has to become gelatinized. I mill my grains really fine so the starch becomes gelatinized very quickly. Once that happens, the enzymes can operate on the starch and convert it to sugar. I've used iodine to test for conversion and found that in the 152-154F. range it happens in less than 3 minutes. With your milling you get larger particles of grain. Those take longer to wet through to gelatinize the starch so your mash will take longer than mine. With that in mind, you have to mash long enough for gelatinization to occur or you don't get complete conversion which leaves you with unconverted starch in your grains and a lower mash efficiency. If you are getting poor efficiency or if you use iodine on the grain and find that there is still unconverted starch you need to mash longer. If your mash requires more than 60 minutes you need to mill finer. If you get the grains crushed at the LHBS and need 90 minutes to get conversion you need to find a different LHBS or get your own mill and buy grains in bulk.

Even though I get conversion very quickly I have found that I need to let my mash sit longer to extract the flavors from the specialty grains. Think of a cup of tea. If you dunk the teabag you get color from it quickly but if you remove it too soon you only get colored water with none of the tea flavor. I now let my mash sit for at least 20 minutes and usually for 30 minutes to extract the flavor.

max384 said:

I stir at dough in and at the end of the mash. I get complete conversion without stirring, so what's the point of stirring? It can only drop temps, which has the chance of changing the character of the beer. I can't think of a good reason to stir the mash.

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I take samples with my refractometer from the top of the mash and find that the gravity is lower than expected which makes me worry. If I then stir the mash the gravity goes up. I think it is because the sugar laden wort settles to the bottom of the tun because when I don't stir I still get the expected OG at the end of the boil. If the sugar laden wort really settles then at the bottom of the grain the sugar concentration is higher which would lead to poorer efficiency if I didn't sparge. Stirring equalizes the concentration so a little more of the sugars are dissolved. With sparging the won't be much difference at the end.

RomanRider said:

I guess I need to research mill gap settings. If you could provide any info where you arrived at those settings please share. Monster Hardware sets the gap at 0.045" and recommends starting there so that's what I did. It looks about the same size crush as when I had the LHBS mill grain before I bought my mill, but I realize that's very subjective. Wheat does not simply fall through, it gets crushed. With the current setting my 1/2" Bosch drill set to low gear has a difficult time getting started (maybe I need to check the brushes ). No need to mill flaked goods that I'm aware of, right? I add them on top of my milled grain before pouring into the mash.

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There isn't any real "verified" mill settings. It's experimental. You try one setting and see what you get for conversion and extraction of sugar. If you have a convention mash tun, you try setting it finer each time until you start having stuck sparges, then open just a little to avoid that problem and accept the efficiency you get.

You're posting in the BIAB section so there isn't the possibility for a stuck sparge (except if you recirculate) so you can mill the grains really fine. The limit on how fine is if you can't get the grains to go through the mill or like in your case where the drill may not have enough power to turn the mill.

I use a Corona style mill rather than a roller mill and I have mine set so tight that the milling plates are rubbing when there isn't grain there to force them apart.

RM-MN said:

I take samples with my refractometer from the top of the mash and find that the gravity is lower than expected which makes me worry. If I then stir the mash the gravity goes up. I think it is because the sugar laden wort settles to the bottom of the tun because when I don't stir I still get the expected OG at the end of the boil. If the sugar laden wort really settles then at the bottom of the grain the sugar concentration is higher which would lead to poorer efficiency if I didn't sparge. Stirring equalizes the concentration so a little more of the sugars are dissolved. With sparging the won't be much difference at the end.

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The sugar laden wort won't actually settle. What happens is most of the grain settles below the surface of the water/wort, leaving liquid with only low density grain bits at the top of the mash. So, most of the sugar is created below the surface layer of liquid. Some sugar will get up there due to diffusion, and from the bits of grain that are in the surface layer. Same thing happens in the space under a false bottom in a traditional MLT. You're correct that you need to stir the mash to homogenize it to get a good SG reading, but you aren't dissolving more sugar, as all sugar is in solution when it is created.

Brew on

RM-MN said:

I take samples with my refractometer from the top of the mash and find that the gravity is lower than expected which makes me worry. If I then stir the mash the gravity goes up. I think it is because the sugar laden wort settles to the bottom of the tun because when I don't stir I still get the expected OG at the end of the boil. If the sugar laden wort really settles then at the bottom of the grain the sugar concentration is higher which would lead to poorer efficiency if I didn't sparge. Stirring equalizes the concentration so a little more of the sugars are dissolved. With sparging the won't be much difference at the end.

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Do you fly or batch sparge?

applescrap said:

You stir what? You posted your first ag brew today. So at the time of this post you hadnt even made an ag batch! This is why forum advice is questionable.

I stir the s..t out of the mash at the beginning and end cause like you don't want to lose heat

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I've made a few partial-mash batches before. Made a thread all about one here on HBT.

bransona said:

Who's to say he wasn't doing partial mash?

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Thank you!



That being said, this time around, I did not stir except for right before taking the temperature 6 minutes after doughing in, and after the mash-timer had elapsed.

applescrap said:

You stir what? You posted your first ag brew today. So at the time of this post you hadnt even made an ag batch! This is why forum advice is questionable.

I stir the s..t out of the mash at the beginning and end cause like you don't want to lose heat

Click to expand...

Rough man, rough.

bransona said:

Who's to say he wasn't doing partial mash?

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That is exactly what I thought. He likely does partial mashes which would include stirring.

That's why I don't jump to conclusions on this forum. Advice here has been fairly solid for me.

I stir when I dough in and not again until the mash is complete. This is not BIAB though. I do mash in a cooler using a bag though for easy clean up. My gap is at .032 but I think it could be at .030. There's no risk of stuck sparges with my bag, of course.

max384 said:

Do you fly or batch sparge?

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No? I dump some water into the top of the bag while it is sitting in a colander that is sitting in a bowl. Sometimes I stir it into the grain, sometimes I just dump it in and let it soak through so I don't really batch or fly sparge.

RM-MN said:

No? I dump some water into the top of the bag while it is sitting in a colander that is sitting in a bowl. Sometimes I stir it into the grain, sometimes I just dump it in and let it soak through so I don't really batch or fly sparge.

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Isn't that BIAB's version of batch sparging? That's my process, and I've always referred to it as such.

bransona said:

Isn't that BIAB's version of batch sparging? That's my process, and I've always referred to it as such.

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With batch sparging you would add water to the grains until they are covered in water, then stir. My grains don't always get covered, sometimes the water drains through before i get that much water in there. I think of dunk sparging as the BIAB version of batch sparging and pour over is more like fly sparging. I do a bastardized mix of both.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1457344738.824035.jpg
I stir like crazy AND recirculate with a constant VERY low source of heat from the burner. I'm constantly monitoring temp which never gets above or below 1-2 degrees within target temp. My conversion efficiencies have been never below 85%. Even hitting 90's quite regularly. I also squeeze and crush fine and do a mash out for 15 minutes at 165-170.

copper2hopper said:

I stir like crazy AND recirculate with a constant VERY low source of heat from the burner. I'm constantly monitoring temp which never gets above or below 1-2 degrees within target temp. My conversion efficiencies have been never below 85%. Even hitting 90's quite regularly. I also squeeze and crush fine and do a mash out for 15 minutes at 165-170.

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I consider anything below 95% to be low conversion efficiency. Fine crush mashes can routinely deliver 98% or better conversion efficiency.

What's your definition of conversion efficiency? The conventional definition of conversion efficiency is the amount of sugar actually created in the mash divided by the maximum potential sugar. It is not the percent of potential sugar that makes it into the BK (that is mash efficiency.) Mash efficiency is equal to conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency. These definitions are the same as used by BrewersFriend and BeerSmith. For efficiency numbers to have any meaning, everyone has to use consistent definitions and terms for all of the different efficiencies that can be calculated.

Brew on

Yes I use Brewers Friend calculators basically for all my calculations.

So not to dredge up too much of an old thread. By accident it happened that I had to stir a mash to cool it down. My system brings the water to strike in like 10 minutes so there's not a whole lot of time to be messing around. I have struggled to find the best strike temp outside since I'm not in my kitchen and have mashed a little too low which based on an experiment I saw leads to higher ABV which makes me want to mash low always. Anyways I messed up and got it a little hot so I stirred it to cool it down. As stated above i stir heavily anyways. But I started thinking why not just stir and not worry about covering right away because the temp in the kettle is what matters and as long as it's within a reasonable Zone I can stir away with the lid off and no rush to put it on. I saw a video I think it was Bobby from brewhardware who is a brilliant dude by the way, said he likes to bring strike too high and stir it to cool it rather than have water in a cooler and end up needing to heat it up. This has held true to me because I am using a heat stick and I take it out and put my bag in so it's a pain in the toochy too add Heat. So I started thinking why not just always start a little warm and then give yourself some time to really get to it. But the real point I'm trying to get at is since I'm doing short mashes and have been brewing this winter outside in the cold in Colorado there hasn't been a lot of time to open the kettle and stir as I wrap up the kettle and bag it so it doesn't turn into an icicle. So when I do open the kettle the water looks fairly clear or at least not what you want but then I start hitting it with the

stir stick like it was 1985 and I'm doing the Cabbage Patch dance to Hammer Time. And all of a sudden the magic happens and poof there is beautiful wort and I just keep stirring and stirring and stirring because I don't want to leave any of my sucrose Buddies left out. Which makes me think that stirring can create can create Wort quickly if not insure a good creamy product. Oh no now I remember yeah stirring it in the beginning like I was saying made wort appear Then too, like real 60 Minute Mash wort. So I started thinking again if you just kind of dumped some grains in and stir up a little probably need 60 minutes but if you get to it less. Okay I'm done