Efficiency Issue

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nconform

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Hey Everyone,

I have been brewing all grain for about 6 months after starting out with a few extract kits to understand the brewing process. I have been brewing a lot of IPA's and am working on some porters now as well. The beers are tasting great which I am happy about but I am always off on hitting my numbers. I recently worked with my recent batch of an IPA and really took the time to test throughout the process to see if I could locate the problem but was unsuccessful. I use beersmith, have fine tuned in my equipment with the equipment profile and usually follow the listed gravities when measuring but I am usually off. Common examples are i'm supposed to be at 1.072 and i'm at 1.055. I used brewers friend calculators to see what my efficiency is from my grain bill and it is saying between 55-60% efficiency. So here is a list of what I am using and the troubleshooting I have tried:

Equipment:
Blichmann Boliermaker G2 10 gallon
Igloo 10 gal mash tun from homebrew store with false bottom
Immersion chiller

Troubleshooting tries:
Started to get grain double crushed from homebrew store for last 3 batches
Always batch sparge but tried to rinse 2 times, let water sit with grain for 20 mins
Usually use water profile tool in berrmsith to key in water for styles
Tested Mash ph recently and used stabilizer to get to 5.0
I'm usually doing anywhere from a 60-75 min sach rest at about 148 degrees to 150 degress
Been checking pre-boil gravity and post boil gravity and numbers are usually lower then I should have (using a hydrometer and a refractometer)

This issue has been consistent since I started with all grain so I am not sure if I am missing something along the way. If more information is needed please let me know and thanks in advance.
 
A couple questions, since I have battled this same issue: how are you measuring mash pH?

Do you know what the crusher setting at the LHBS is?

Have you tried a 90 min mash?

My problem was the crush at my LHBS. Even running it twice wasn't enough to fix the problem and I was routinely in the 60% range.

You can also just anticipate the low efficiency and add a little grain to your recipe to compensate.
 
Tested Mash ph recently and used stabilizer to get to 5.0

That's a bit too low. Your mash pH should really be between 5.2-5.5. A low pH will definitely affect your conversion efficiency. And "stabilizer" is a dubious product... Mash pH is better adjusted with a knowledge of the water chemistry and actual brewing salts (gypsum, CaCl, etc.).
 
Thanks for the reply. I actually do not know what the setting on their mill is, but I have started to think of milling my own grains. As far as the 90 minutes, I have only done 75 at most. I actually did an iodine test yesterday and there was no dark or purple in the mash sample I took so I'm assuming it fully converted although I've read that test can be unreliable at times. As far as the ph, I have been using the strips and then the 5.2 stabilizer which I am reading as of recent are both unreliable, hah, another rookie mistake.
 
Crush your own grains, give them a vigorous stir when doughing-in, make sure you eliminate all dough-balls. Give it a stir again mid-way through the mash. Those changes should give you a perceptible boost to your efficiency.
 
Are there any ph testing products you would recommend?

Unfortunately, a quality pH meter is the only product really worthwhile according to the water guru's and they ain't cheap. I went with a Milwaukee MW101, and the MW102 is frequently cited as an excellent choice. Hanna also makes good meters. You are basically looking for something with temperature compensation and an accuracy of +/-0.01.

Without investing in a pH meter, you can use the Bru'nwater spreadsheet to calculate your mash pH ahead of time, and it's been very accurate for me (within 0.1 of the expected each time).

Water chemistry is fairly daunting for new brewer unless you are a chemist or engineer by trade. While pH DOES affect conversion efficiency to some extent, the actual role it plays is fairly minimal. The biggest factors in mash efficiency are crush size, length of mash, and mash temperature.

So if you are faced with a choice between investing in a pH meter or a grain mill to fix this problem, I would go with the grain mill since it will have a much larger impact.
 
Thanks, yea the grain crush is one of the few things I do not have control over right now. Being that this is a new purchase, what is your advice on 2 or 3 roller mill?
 
Thanks, yea the grain crush is one of the few things I do not have control over right now. Being that this is a new purchase, what is your advice on 2 or 3 roller mill?

2 roller mills are much cheaper and work fine for the majority of folks I think. It really depends on how much you want to spend and how fast you want to crush your grain.
 
Great, that helps a lot. I was thinking of running the same recipe through another program too, just to see if the OG's still remain the same but I'm guessing that isn't going to change much. The grains are what they are.
 
without precise and accurate volumes, gravities, and grist amounts for a given brewday, it's all just shots in the dark. if you can supply those values then perhaps we can be of some help.
 
Unfortunately, a quality pH meter is the only product really worthwhile according to the water guru's and they ain't cheap. I went with a Milwaukee MW101, and the MW102 is frequently cited as an excellent choice. Hanna also makes good meters. You are basically looking for something with temperature compensation and an accuracy of +/-0.01.

Without investing in a pH meter, you can use the Bru'nwater spreadsheet to calculate your mash pH ahead of time, and it's been very accurate for me (within 0.1 of the expected each time).

Water chemistry is fairly daunting for new brewer unless you are a chemist or engineer by trade. While pH DOES affect conversion efficiency to some extent, the actual role it plays is fairly minimal. The biggest factors in mash efficiency are crush size, length of mash, and mash temperature.

So if you are faced with a choice between investing in a pH meter or a grain mill to fix this problem, I would go with the grain mill since it will have a much larger impact.

Does anyone ever use the PH test strips? Seems a cheap way to get into measuring PH, unless they're unreliable.
 
Thanks for the reply. I actually do not know what the setting on their mill is, but I have started to think of milling my own grains. As far as the 90 minutes, I have only done 75 at most. I actually did an iodine test yesterday and there was no dark or purple in the mash sample I took so I'm assuming it fully converted although I've read that test can be unreliable at times. As far as the ph, I have been using the strips and then the 5.2 stabilizer which I am reading as of recent are both unreliable, hah, another rookie mistake.

The problem with the iodine test is that most folks just test the wort in the mash, but any remaining starch is usually still in the grits, which are excluded from the test. To get a good iodine test, you need to gets grits in the sample, and crush them up a little more in order to expose the starch.

The reason for the above is that there are two main processes going on in the mash. Gelatinization (absorption of water, expansion, loosening of structure, and dissolution) of starch granules, and conversion of the gelatinized starch to sugar (saccharification.) Gelatinization must occur before saccharification can occur. Gelatinization proceeds from the surface of the grits towards the center, and the larger the grits the longer it takes for the process to complete 100%.

Saccharification proceeds much faster than gelatinization, so starch does not stay around long in the wort if there are sufficient amylase enzymes in the mash. If you sample just the wort, you're not sampling the remaining starch that is still trapped in the grits.

A better way to monitor completeness of conversion is to test the SG of the wort in the mash. It turns out that the maximum SG (corresponding to 100% conversion) is a function of the mash thickness (water to grain ratio), and independent of the total amount of grain. Once the wort SG has reached the maximum possible SG, the mash is 100% converted. Kai Troester has tabulated maximum SG vs. water to grain ratio here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Measuring_conversion_efficiency. Measurements of mash SG are best made with a refractometer.

Brew on :mug:
 
Awesome Doug, that explains that process a lot better. I am determined to get my efficiency up and knowing all the contributing factors and how to assess them makes a huge difference. I know there is something along the way I am missing.
 
The problem with the iodine test is that most folks just test the wort in the mash, but any remaining starch is usually still in the grits, which are excluded from the test. To get a good iodine test, you need to gets grits in the sample, and crush them up a little more in order to expose the starch.

The reason for the above is that there are two main processes going on in the mash. Gelatinization (absorption of water, expansion, loosening of structure, and dissolution) of starch granules, and conversion of the gelatinized starch to sugar (saccharification.) Gelatinization must occur before saccharification can occur. Gelatinization proceeds from the surface of the grits towards the center, and the larger the grits the longer it takes for the process to complete 100%.

Saccharification proceeds much faster than gelatinization, so starch does not stay around long in the wort if there are sufficient amylase enzymes in the mash. If you sample just the wort, you're not sampling the remaining starch that is still trapped in the grits.

A better may to monitor completeness of conversion is to test the SG of the wort in the mash. It turns out that the maximum SG (corresponding to 100% conversion) is a function of the mash thickness (water to grain ratio), and independent of the total amount of grain. Once the wort SG has reached the maximum possible SG, the mash is 100% converted. Kai Troester has tabulated maximum SG vs. water to grain ratio here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Measuring_conversion_efficiency. Measurements of mash SG are best made with a refractometer.

Brew on :mug:

Thank you for that table, Doug; it's now bookmarked.

As I read the table, it appears to me that it's really just a function of dilution; the more water you have, given a fixed amount of possible sugar to be extracted, the lower the SG.

Do I have that right? It certainly is useful for predicting maximum efficiency, but it also seems to me that even if I use an excess amount of water, if I boil it down, I end up with the maximum SG at the end of the boil.

Just trying to wrap my head around all this. Did my first AG brew last weekend, my efficiency was at best about 60, I think I know what to do to improve it (better crush, stirring, and I'll batch sparge instead of my attempt at fly sparging).
 
Thank you for that table, Doug; it's now bookmarked.
That's been one of my go to pages for a while. Read and reread the whole page. Ton of good information in there.

As I read the table, it appears to me that it's really just a function of dilution; the more water you have, given a fixed amount of possible sugar to be extracted, the lower the SG.

Do I have that right? It certainly is useful for predicting maximum efficiency, but it also seems to me that even if I use an excess amount of water, if I boil it down, I end up with the maximum SG at the end of the boil.

...

A fixed amount of grain has a fixed amount of potential sugar. Efficiency just measures how much of that potential sugar you obtained.
Conversion Efficiency: Percentage of starch converted to sugar in the mash.
Lauter Efficiency: Percentage of sugar created in the mash that makes it into your boil kettle.
Mash Efficiency: Conversion Efficiency times Lauter Efficiency
Brewhouse Efficiency: Percentage of potential sugar that makes it into your fermenter.
Packaged Efficiency: Percentage of potential sugar that makes it into your bottles or kegs.​
Efficiency can only stay the same or go down as you go from process to process. Once the mash is done, you cannot create more sugar.

You can increase lauter efficiency by using more mash/sparge water. This does not create more sugar, but rather lowers the SG of the wort trapped in the grain after lautering. Lower trapped wort SG means less sugar retained in the grain, so more in your BK.

Boiling more will increase the concentration of sugar in the wort (higher SG), but it won't create any more sugar, so cannot change the efficiency.

Brew on :mug:
 
Ok guys after your advice I actually downloaded and used Bru'n water to see what the estimate of my mash ph was. After taking a look at things, I always treat my water with gypsum and epsom salt to get reach a preferred water profile but according to Bru'n after those additions my water's ph dropped to 4.2. When i adjusted the minerals and just used epsom salt, the ph was at a nice 5.5. Think this could be the major issue? Up to this point I never focused on my mash's ph. This last batch I used the testing strips and stabilizer but from what I am hearing those don't do much to help.
 
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