Steeping non-steeping grains (ZDC recipe)

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kirkcaldybrewer

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Hi All,

relative noob to extract brewing here. I bought the ingredients to make the zombie dust extract clone

(http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/5920/zombie-dust-clone-extract)

I had to substitute a few grains according to what I can find, using this chart: (http://www.brew.is/files/malt.html)

But when the grains arrived, e.g. the munich it says "not for steeping" on the packet.

Does this mean I've got the wrong grain? Or is it just another aspect of the recipe? Would it go horribly wrong if I steeped non-steeping grains??

Thanks!

(ps the recipe calls for a rather long steep of 45-60 mins...maybe this is in order to get some conversion going??)
 
Munich malt is a base malt & must be mashed. The long steep might be to give it time to convert. But I'd also keep the temp down to about 153-155F as well.
 
I'm guessing the Munich was a substitute for the Munich 10L? unionrdr is right, regular Munich malt must be mashed or you'll get no sugars out of it, just starches. Munich 10L has been lightly kilned, converting some of the starches into (mostly unfermentable) sugars, which can be infused into your mash liquid by simply steeping. Regular Munich has no sugars, and simply steeping it will just give you a starchy, hazy wort.

You could attempt to mash it, but it's such a small amount, and mashing is a little bit more of an advanced technique, requiring more precise control of liquid volumes (you'd typically mash with 1.25 - 1.75 qt/lb) and temperatures (145 - 152 for light body beers, 153 - 158 for fuller bodied beers). You also need a way to separate the grain from the wort, but if you're steeping grains already, I expect you already have a grain bag. If you feel you're up for it, give it a try, but otherwise I'd either try to find some actual Munich 10L, or just leave the Munich out.

If you decide to mash it, the correct procedure would be to heat 1.5 quarts of water to 155 - 160° F or so, then turn off the heat and add your grain bag containing the pound of Munich. Stir to ensure the grain is completely soaked, then cover and leave it for an hour. Then remove the grain bag, dump the Munich grain, refill the grain bag with your steeping grains while you add the rest of your water to the pot and raise the temperature of the wort to 160 - 170° F or so, then dunk your bag of steeping grains for another 30 - 60 minutes. Then remove them, top up your pot to your pre-boil volume (the steeping grains will have absorbed some), bring the wort to a boil, add half your dry malt extract and do your hop additions while boiling for an hour. With 5 minutes or so left in your boil, add the rest of the dry malt extract. To reduce scorching, you can cut the heat while you're adding the DME, and turn it back on once it's totally dissolved. Then chill, rack to fermenter, pitch yeast, yada yada yada.
 
All Munich needs to be mashed, as does Vienna, biscuit malts (e.g., Victory), Carapils and Carafoam, etc. Just looked at your recipe, it also contains Melanoiden which also needs mashing.

The difference lies whether the malt is self converting. Vienna and Munich 10 are self converting, Munich 20 usually is* [please see correction below] but barely, and depending on the maltster, some Munich needs some base malt added for conversion.

Do as @kombat said, mash is a pot in a pre-warmed, turned off oven at 150°F. Either use a grain bag or strain through a sieve or colander. After the wort has been collected, a sparge (rinse) is recommended.

Mashing is fairly easy, and a very rewarding process. I just love it and the smell is amazing.

BTW, this brewing process is called partial mash where you obtain some fermentables from mashing and the rest from extract.

*correction:
Munich 20°L is NOT self converting. I was thinking of Weyermann's Munich II (Dark Munich) which is actually 8.0-9.9°L, not nearly 20.
 
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Apparently, @IslandLizard is correct about Munich 10L needing to be mashed. I was (incorrectly) assuming it was just the Munich version of Crystal 10. It does indeed need to be mashed. I'm surprised it would be included in the recipe the OP cited, which is supposed to be entirely extract, no mashing required. I also should have mentioned that, as @IslandLizard noted, the method I described is called a "partial mash."

However, at the risk of adding more confusion, I must correct IslandLizard and point out that Carapils and Carafoam do not need to be mashed. They can be steeped. They have no diastatic power of their own whatsoever. Their starches have already been converted into sugars by the kilning process. They are comparable to crystal malts in that respect.
 
You've got 2 pounds of malt in that recipe that need to be mashed: Munich, Carafoam, and Melanoiden. If you bought Munich 20 it does not have enough "diastatic power" (DP) convert all those. Some base malt is needed to help it along. Half a pound of 2-row would be the minimum, 3/4 to a pound is better. Then mash that with the 3 malts above.

Do you have a brew store nearby? Someone you know who has it?

Needless to say, the malts need to be crushed.
 
Apparently, @IslandLizard is correct about Munich 10L needing to be mashed. I was (incorrectly) assuming it was just the Munich version of Crystal 10. It does indeed need to be mashed. I'm surprised it would be included in the recipe the OP cited, which is supposed to be entirely extract, no mashing required. I also should have mentioned that, as @IslandLizard noted, the method I described is called a "partial mash."

However, at the risk of adding more confusion, I must correct IslandLizard and point out that Carapils and Carafoam do not need to be mashed. They can be steeped. They have no diastatic power of their own whatsoever. Their starches have already been converted into sugars by the kilning process. They are comparable to crystal malts in that respect.

Steeping or mashing CaraPils and Carafoam has always been a debate. I'm on the mashing side, same for low Lovibond Crystals (C10-C25).

So, I just looked it up again. Briess claims CaraPils kernels are 100% "glassy" (not mealy) and thus can be steeped. They do mention a cloudy appearance when steeping, that disappears after boiling. So you seem to be good with just steeping those.

That still leaves the Munich 20 (?) and the Melanoiden. Any indication what kind of Munich you've got there?
 
The information I've found indicates that Munich 10 has enough diastatic power to barely self-convert, but could not convert anything else along with it. I suspect Munich 20 could not even self-convert. I don't know about the Melanoiden, but if you're planning on mashing this, then IslandLizard is right, you'd need to add some other base malt in there with high diastatic power (or add some amylase enzyme, but I think that's a little too technical for the OP at this point). The information I'm reading indicates that you can get away with just steeping Melanoidin malt, and still get at least some of its benefit. With such a small amount, I wouldn't complicate this recipe further by trying to mash it.

So in conclusion, here's what I'd do:

Mash the Munich 10 on its own, as I described earlier. Don't mash it with anything else, it's not powerful enough to convert anything other than itself. Or, leave it out of the recipe completely and just steep the rest.
 
The information I've found indicates that Munich 10 has enough diastatic power to barely self-convert, but could not convert anything else along with it. I suspect Munich 20 could not even self-convert. I don't know about the Melanoiden, but if you're planning on mashing this, then IslandLizard is right, you'd need to add some other base malt in there with high diastatic power (or add some amylase enzyme, but I think that's a little too technical for the OP at this point). The information I'm reading indicates that you can get away with just steeping Melanoidin malt, and still get at least some of its benefit. With such a small amount, I wouldn't complicate this recipe further by trying to mash it.

So in conclusion, here's what I'd do:

Mash the Munich 10 on its own, as I described earlier. Don't mash it with anything else, it's not powerful enough to convert anything other than itself. Or, leave it out of the recipe completely and just steep the rest.

Munich and what they call it as well as the DP, really depend on the maltster. You're right, Briess' Munich 20 is not self converting. Weyermann's Munich I (~6°L) and II (~9°L) are according to their malt specs. You can use 100% of them in the mash. But II is not even close to 20°L, so thanks for the correction.
 
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Munich 20 can convert.

Munich 10L can convert.

No worries.

Put the grains together in 1.5-2 quarts of 164 degree water per pound of grain, and hold at 150-155 for 45 minutes. Stir well, put the lid on it and wrap with a blanket. No need to over think this.

It'll be great.
 
Guys! Thanks for all the advice. The malt I bought is simply labelled "Munich". The description (http://www.brewuk.co.uk/munich-malt-1kg.html) reads "It has enough diastatic power to convert itself, but needs help from another malt, such as 2-row malt, to convert other grains. "

So, I'm thinking just steeping it in 155F water for 45-60 mins (as per recipe) is basically a mini BIAB mash and will work out with the Munich.

I'm hoping to get this on the go at the weekend, so will report back...
 
I've used both & always throw in a couple pounds of 2-row to help things out. But with a lager or hybrid lager, as I do, I'm going to cut out a pound of the 2-row & sub in a pound of 6-row to get more diastatic power. Should convert the rest more completely & give a clearer beer.
 
Just to follow up on this. So I went with a partial BIAB, which yielded 5L of wort with gravity of 1.038 and which tasted sweet so there was definite conversion :)

(this is a big deal for me as it's the first time I've done it).

I then added 7L to get 12L and added 3kg DME for my boil. Finally topping up to 21L at the end giving 1.060. According to Brewersfriend, this corresponds to 60% conversion efficiency. Not amazing, but I'm just happy it worked :)
 
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