Sour/Lambic beers and temp fluctuation

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tarmenel

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Hi there,
Wondering if anyone could shed some light on how important temperature is in the souring process of fermentation. More the Brett's than Lacto fermentation. I'm asking as here in Israel the summer temp's get up to 40 degree's in August so the beer being fermented on the porch I normally put into out server room at work to keep constant. Not sure how they'd like a beer sitting in there for over a year.
 
I definitely wouldn't leave it where the ambient temp is 40C/104F...that's just too warm in my opinion. From what I've read, seasonal fluctuations of a few degrees are okay but you still want to keep it closer to room temp. Also, I'm not sure what you're going for, but if you only use brett strains, you won't get much sourness. You'll need lactobacillus or pediococcus to produce some acidity. And a brett beer alone won't take a year to ferment. If you do use lacto/pedio for souring, Jamil has indicated that elevated temps can speed the souring process but he didn't recommend it.
 
Thought so on the temps. What about a saison then? Would that be able to handle the something in the 30's?
I am looking for sour and trying to find different ways of getting lacto (sauerkraut, sourdough, yogurt, kefir, kombucha)
 
I definitely wouldn't leave it where the ambient temp is 40C/104F...that's just too warm in my opinion. From what I've read, seasonal fluctuations of a few degrees are okay but you still want to keep it closer to room temp. Also, I'm not sure what you're going for, but if you only use brett strains, you won't get much sourness. You'll need lactobacillus or pediococcus to produce some acidity. And a brett beer alone won't take a year to ferment. If you do use lacto/pedio for souring, Jamil has indicated that elevated temps can speed the souring process but he didn't recommend it.


This is a bit misleading.

Brett WILL sour a beer by producing acid under aerobic conditions. Crooked Stave makes 100% Brett beers that are more sour than most commercial lambics. They do so by allowing the beer to mature in oak casks, exposing it to oxygen and allowing Brett to undergo aerobic fermentation. Of course, accomplishing this on a homebrewing scale is another thing entirely. I've heard of people leaving Brett beers in primary for up to a year to encourage oxygen exposure.

If you can keep your beer under 27C, it will thank you. A saison is a perfect complementary style for the job, but you might see some unusual phenolics at higher temperatures.
 
This is a bit misleading.

Brett WILL sour a beer by producing acid under aerobic conditions. Crooked Stave makes 100% Brett beers that are more sour than most commercial lambics. They do so by allowing the beer to mature in oak casks, exposing it to oxygen and allowing Brett to undergo aerobic fermentation.

They do 100% brett primaries, but the majority of souring comes from lactic acid cultures (lactobacillus and pediococcus) in the barrels in secondary. Apparently they've also experimented with kettle souring. Exposing the brett to oxygen will result in acetic acid (vinegar) production. The micro-oxygenation from aging on oak will result in some acetic acid production which can add complexity at low levels, but I'd never describe a CS beer as overly acetic.
 
They do 100% brett primaries, but the majority of souring comes from lactic acid cultures (lactobacillus and pediococcus) in the barrels in secondary. Apparently they've also experimented with kettle souring. Exposing the brett to oxygen will result in acetic acid (vinegar) production. The micro-oxygenation from aging on oak will result in some acetic acid production which can add complexity at low levels, but I'd never describe a CS beer as overly acetic.


I don't understand how this is in common parlance. Their website says they only pitch Brett, the bottles say 100% Brettanomyces, and they ferment everything on a 6 week schedule without pitching to secondary. That is nowhere near the time scale needed for lacto or pedio to take effect. So...where's the smoking gun here?

http://www.crookedstave.com/2013/04/25/st-bretta-brew-day/
 
Brett WILL sour a beer by producing acid under aerobic conditions. Crooked Stave makes 100% Brett beers that are more sour than most commercial lambics.

I don't believe Brett produces a sour beer. It may lower the ph somewhat, but I don't believe it makes lactic or acetic acid. But ... many people have commented that it does, so I will not argue that point. However, to say Brett can produce a beer that is more sour than a Commercial Lambic is quite simply wrong! I have drunk a number off commercial Brett beers and made many (both primary and secondary), and I would not consider any of them to be sour.

Do you have personal experience of making a Brett beer which is sour?


If you can keep your beer under 27C, it will thank you. A saison is a perfect complementary style for the job, but you might see some unusual phenolics at higher temperatures.

Many Brett strains recommend fermenting above 85 F (30 C). Many Saiaon yeasts are happy up there; Brasserie Dupont ferments at 90 F (32 C).

If you want to sour with lacto, optimum temp is 100 F+(38 C), If using grain to sour with lacto, there seems to be some benefit to get it above 110 F (44 C) to prevent other bacteria from working.

Yes, most standard yeasts like to be 70 F or below, but once you start working on the wild side, all the rules go out off the window.
 
I don't believe Brett produces a sour beer. It may lower the ph somewhat, but I don't believe it makes lactic or acetic acid. But ... many people have commented that it does, so I will not argue that point. However, to say Brett can produce a beer that is more sour than a Commercial Lambic is quite simply wrong! I have drunk a number off commercial Brett beers and made many (both primary and secondary), and I would not consider any of them to be sour.



Do you have personal experience of making a Brett beer which is sour?

Many Brett strains recommend fermenting above 85 F (30 C). Many Saiaon yeasts are happy up there; Brasserie Dupont ferments at 90 F (32 C).



If you want to sour with lacto, optimum temp is 100 F+(38 C), If using grain to sour with lacto, there seems to be some benefit to get it above 110 F (44 C) to prevent other bacteria from working.



Yes, most standard yeasts like to be 70 F or below, but once you start working on the wild side, all the rules go out off the window.


Yep. But if you don't believe me, try a commercial example:

http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/25191/111646/

Additionally, all of my sources seem to indicate Brett prefers to work best between 65-80. Lacto cultures may be a different story, but I've heard bad things happen to Brett when the temperature creeps into the 80s.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/06/all-about-brettanomyces.html
 
I don't understand how this is in common parlance. Their website says they only pitch Brett, the bottles say 100% Brettanomyces, and they ferment everything on a 6 week schedule without pitching to secondary. That is nowhere near the time scale needed for lacto or pedio to take effect. So...where's the smoking gun here?

http://www.crookedstave.com/2013/04/25/st-bretta-brew-day/

While pedio works pretty slow, six weeks is plenty of time for lactobacillus to sour substantially. My Berliner got down to 3.00 within four weeks (post boil souring). Granted, that was with lactobacillus pitched in primary, but my point is souring doesn't have to take a long time.

Regarding St. Bretta, it has some tartness, but it's nowhere near the pH of a lambic. Re the tartness that's there, I suspect a good portion is coming from whatever citrus addition they used. I have a petite saison that I added tart cherries to and it ended up with a pH of 3.68 with no souring bacteria. Not to beat a dead horse, but I'd call St Bretta more of a wild ale than a sour ale.

If you don't believe me re brett and acidity, take a look at a couple quotes from Michael Tonsmeire's (The Mad Fermentationist) book, American Sour Beers:

The primary role Brettanomyces plays in the fermentation of sour beer is to ferment dextrins...
Brettanomyces does not contribute much to the acidity of sour beers--acid production is primarily the purview of bacteria. The only exception is when there is a large amount of oxygen available, which causes Brettanomyces to produce acetic acid.


Again, some Crooked Stave beers have hints of acetic character as a result of microoxygenation (definitely not large amounts of O2) from time spent in barrels and foeders, but I would not describe any of their sour beers as acetic or vinegary which they would be if they got their acidity from acetic acid alone.
 
Hey tarmenel, we meet again! I think the main problem you'll run into, depending on what you're adding to your wort to sour it, is that you'll have a diverse bug mix, some of which will be just fine at those high temps, others of which won't fare well at all. In the sour recipe I shared with you yesterday I did my primary at 80F for 30 days before racking off to ambient garage temps (summer California temps on the coast - so fluctuating some but around 70-80 more or less), and then kept it there for another couple of months prior to packaging. That beer turned our really well, and I repeated that procedure for another sour last year with the same results. I've got 4 planned for this summer doing the same thing.

As far as saison strains go, just pay careful attention to the temp range recommended by the manufacturer. I've done WY3724 at 95F before and had really good results, but other strains won't like that at all. In general though for both saisons and sours I'd say that warmer is better than cooler.

If you're not already, you should join the Milk The Funk Facebook page and check out their wiki pages. Some of the best information I've found on these subjects to date!
 
While pedio works pretty slow, six weeks is plenty of time for lactobacillus to sour substantially. My Berliner got down to 3.00 within four weeks (post boil souring). Granted, that was with lactobacillus pitched in primary, but my point is souring doesn't have to take a long time.



Regarding St. Bretta, it has some tartness, but it's nowhere near the pH of a lambic. Re the tartness that's there, I suspect a good portion is coming from whatever citrus addition they used. I have a petite saison that I added tart cherries to and it ended up with a pH of 3.68 with no souring bacteria. Not to beat a dead horse, but I'd call St Bretta more of a wild ale than a sour ale.



If you don't believe me re brett and acidity, take a look at a couple quotes from Michael Tonsmeire's (The Mad Fermentationist) book, American Sour Beers:



The primary role Brettanomyces plays in the fermentation of sour beer is to ferment dextrins...

Brettanomyces does not contribute much to the acidity of sour beers--acid production is primarily the purview of bacteria. The only exception is when there is a large amount of oxygen available, which causes Brettanomyces to produce acetic acid.




Again, some Crooked Stave beers have hints of acetic character as a result of microoxygenation (definitely not large amounts of O2) from time spent in barrels and foeders, but I would not describe any of their sour beers as acetic or vinegary which they would be if they got their acidity from acetic acid alone.


Gotcha. In all fairness I don't consume many lambics or "proper" sours, so the St Bretta is just about as sour as I can handle. I've got a kettle soured gose that got down to 3.4 pre boil and the St Bretta was miles more tart than that. I'm just saying, it was definitely sour to my palate.

Apologies for thread derailment! :/
 
Hey tarmenel, we meet again! I think the main problem you'll run into, depending on what you're adding to your wort to sour it, is that you'll have a diverse bug mix, some of which will be just fine at those high temps, others of which won't fare well at all. In the sour recipe I shared with you yesterday I did my primary at 80F for 30 days before racking off to ambient garage temps (summer California temps on the coast - so fluctuating some but around 70-80 more or less), and then kept it there for another couple of months prior to packaging. That beer turned our really well, and I repeated that procedure for another sour last year with the same results. I've got 4 planned for this summer doing the same thing.

As far as saison strains go, just pay careful attention to the temp range recommended by the manufacturer. I've done WY3724 at 95F before and had really good results, but other strains won't like that at all. In general though for both saisons and sours I'd say that warmer is better than cooler.

If you're not already, you should join the Milk The Funk Facebook page and check out their wiki pages. Some of the best information I've found on these subjects to date!

Thanks. Joined the Milk the Funki page. Now just need to learn how to use Facebook;)
I'm thinking that a fermentation fridge is pretty much the next thing I'll need to invest in. I can use my server room at work but that might fill up. Although for the sours I want to leave for a year it might be the best place. Just a monthly check to see it's not drying out.
 
Gotcha. In all fairness I don't consume many lambics or "proper" sours, so the St Bretta is just about as sour as I can handle. I've got a kettle soured gose that got down to 3.4 pre boil and the St Bretta was miles more tart than that. I'm just saying, it was definitely sour to my palate.

Apologies for thread derailment! :/

I'm loving this derailment. I'm learning quite a bit about it and there's always space for some good arguments from level headed chaps going about their business and sharing their knowledge. I'll be referencing this post in the future for sure when I get my brett's. For souring I will probably generally do a sour wort for ease and also control. I can sour it and then continue with the rest of the brew.
 
Thanks. Joined the Milk the Funki page. Now just need to learn how to use Facebook;)
I'm thinking that a fermentation fridge is pretty much the next thing I'll need to invest in. I can use my server room at work but that might fill up. Although for the sours I want to leave for a year it might be the best place. Just a monthly check to see it's not drying out.

If you didn't get approved to join MTF, PM the name you are under on Facebook and I will approve you into the group.
 
Thanks. Joined the Milk the Funki page. Now just need to learn how to use Facebook;)
I'm thinking that a fermentation fridge is pretty much the next thing I'll need to invest in. I can use my server room at work but that might fill up. Although for the sours I want to leave for a year it might be the best place. Just a monthly check to see it's not drying out.

Hey, I saw you on there! At least I saw a new guy from Israel join that had a lot of questions about obtaining Brett and Lacto cultures in Israel, so I had a strong suspicion that was you! ;)
 
Yup, awesome stuff. I already got in contact with someone to help me out with some bugs. I just need to get my Berliner Weisse down and then I'll head down to him to pick up some brett and lacto. I'll also need to learn how to start propagating yeasts properly.
 
If you didn't get approved to join MTF, PM the name you are under on Facebook and I will approve you into the group.

Thanks. I was accepted and already got some really great local help. Super valuable here in Israel where things are only starting to take off.
 

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