Red IPA, feedback/input?

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Ungoliant

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EDIT: Revised recipe in Post #13: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7341218&postcount=13

After toying with recipe development for a couple months and making a few beers of my own recipe, I'm looking at putting together a Red IPA.

I did a Zombie Dust clone not too long ago, which is a single hop (Citra) APA by Three Floyds, and it was fantastic. It really turned me on to Citra hops in general. So, I wanted to make an IPA with Citra, but using other strains that play well with Citra. I've read that Amarillo does. Anyway, here's the recipe:

Vitals:
Est. OG: 1.070
Est. FG: 1.016
Est. ABV: 7.13%
IBU: 67.55
SRM: 15.66
Mash Temp: 150 F

Grain Bill (BIAB Mash@150, 90 minutes):
9 Red X
2.5 Pale 2-Row
1.5 Munich Light
0.5 Crystal 60
0.5 Melanoidin
0.25 Carapils

Hop Schedule:
1 oz @ 1st Wort Citra
.5 oz @ 60 Amarillo
.5 oz @ 15 Citra
.25oz @15 Amarillo
.5 oz @10 Citra
.5 oz @10 Amarillo
.5 oz @5 Citra
.25oz @5 Amarillo

Dry Hop x7 Days:
1.5 oz Amarillo
2.5 oz Citra

S-05
 
I've done a couple red IPA's this winter. One was ~11 SRM, and I didn't think it was quite "dark/red" enough, and the other one was ~17 SRM, which had a nice red hue, but was a bit too dark. I think 14-15 SRM is about the sweet spot for a nice red hue in my experience, so I think you're pretty close there.

My first one had 10-12oz of light crystal malt, which came across a bit sweet for an IPA, to me. The second one, I only use 1 oz of light crystal malt and 1 oz of dark crystal malt and was much happier with the results. With that being said, I would recommend dropping your crystal down a bit, or dropping it completely. I think you'll get plenty of malty/slight sweetness from your Red X, Munich malt and melanoidin malt.

Citra and Amarillo should make a great combo. Since this is leaning toward a bit malty for an IPA (nothing wrong with that in a Red IPA), I would probably add a little bit more hops toward the end of the boil, and/or add some whirlpool/hopstand hops to help the hop flavor stand out a bit more. Another ounce or two of dry hops wouldn't hurt, but 4oz isn't bad either.

Looks like you'll have a great RIPA on your hands, any way you go! :mug:
 
I would probably add a little bit more hops toward the end of the boil, and/or add some whirlpool/hopstand hops to help the hop flavor stand out a bit more. Another ounce or two of dry hops wouldn't hurt, but 4oz isn't bad either.

Looks like you'll have a great RIPA on your hands, any way you go! :mug:

Yup, I would still do the FWH (but with Amarillo instead of Citra... Citra bitters weird in my experience) and add all the hops (and then some :) ) at flameout, let them steep for about 20 minutes, and then another 2-4 ounces at 170*. let those steep for a good 20 minutes.

Dry hop as indicated. I love hoppy red IPA's.

BTW in no means I am suggesting your recipe is not good, I actually really like your recipe. I have learned (from this forum) that all those hops at the end really add flavor and aroma... they do impart bitterness too!

Brew on :tank:
 
I think you need to look at your hop bill. Its a bit needlessly complicated and wont give enough hop character for an IPA, IMO.

There's really no point to doing a 60min and a FWH addition. Both will provide about the same bitterness and both will have ZERO hop flavor. Save you good hops for late in the boil and use something like magnum, columbus, apollo, etc for bittering

The 15-10-5 thing is a bit overthinking it too. Just try doing a single late addition, and then a large flameout addition followed by a hopstand/whirlpool. Youll get much better hop character this way. You could also stand to bump up those late additions. 4 oz of hops does not make an IPA make
 
I would agree that the 15-10-5 addition is potentially a wasted effort, although you will get appreciable hop flavor from that schedule. I have done similar hop schedules where the goal is to get a nice layering effect of hop flavor, because in theory there are different flavors from each addition. You may get more mileage, and a similar effect by adding a five minute addition to the boil, a flameout addition, and then a whirlpool addition when the temperature goes down to around 170, just like what m00ps said. This way, each addition will throw more distinctive flavors. And I'd definitely concur that you shouldn't waste those precious Citra and Amarillo hops on early additions, use a bittering hop if you have it. I would configure all of your late additions first to see where that gets you IBU wise, and then add a 60 minute bittering addition that will make up the difference.

I love the grain bill. Low crystal, a lot of aromatic malts and complexity. It will be amazing.
 
Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I'll sit down and poke at the hop schedule a bit. Overall I tried to keep it in the BJCP 21B Specialty IPA - Red IPA, stats wise.

I leaned a tad heavy on the grain bill because I kind of hate the west coast IPA style, where it's just enough grain to hit your ABV and bitter as ****. It makes for a boring IPA.

Also, my rationale on the hop schedule (specifically the bittering hops) is that Zombie Dust uses only Citra hops, including a single bittering addition, and it is a fantastic beer. I'm probably going to take the 60m Amarillo addition out, and move the 15-10-5 to a 10 and flameout addition.
 
That looks like a fun beer to try out. I think it looks good as is, at least good enough for a trial brew.
I am lucky enough to have moved into the commercial realm recently and we just did a 100% Red X red pale ale. It is really delicious. My IRA is ever evolving, and if you are willing to wade through the pages has lots of good tweaks to the Red IPA style.
 
I think it'll be good, but I'm feeling that your hops are a little light. Maybe supplement with some Magnum at the 60 minute mark to spruce it up a bit. It sounds good, but it doesn't seem like an IPA.

If you want to try a good red ipa, look for a bottle of Founders ReDANKulous.
 
Very interesting, I was planning on doing a Grapefruit Red IPA with Red X and Amarillo/Citra/Cascade hops. I think my SRM (~16) is a little high and my hop schedule probably needs a second look (FWH/20 min/5 min/dry hop). The more I read about IPAs, the more I'm leaning toward loading up on the hopstand and dry-hopping. Very interested to hear how yours comes out.
 
Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I'll sit down and poke at the hop schedule a bit. Overall I tried to keep it in the BJCP 21B Specialty IPA - Red IPA, stats wise.

I leaned a tad heavy on the grain bill because I kind of hate the west coast IPA style, where it's just enough grain to hit your ABV and bitter as ****. It makes for a boring IPA.

Also, my rationale on the hop schedule (specifically the bittering hops) is that Zombie Dust uses only Citra hops, including a single bittering addition, and it is a fantastic beer. I'm probably going to take the 60m Amarillo addition out, and move the 15-10-5 to a 10 and flameout addition.


Couple of things here: First if you want to keep the grain bill simple, use the Red X. I plan on doing a red IPA with Red X and maybe 10% carapils and/or5% oats. that's really all you'll need.

Second, if you want to avoid that dry, bitter west coast ipa, you will need to consider changing the yeast you have selected. A nice English strain (SO-4 if you can only choose dry), Denny's Favorite, Conon or London Ale (All wyeast) will not only lend body, but will also add fruity characteristics to your finished product. I too wanted to brew IPAs that weren't dry and bitter. I have changed the yeast and the outcome was welcoming. Your "heavy grain bill" won't really solve that dryness issue but your yeast will.

And Zombie Dust is a fantastic showcase for the Citra Hop. But when does 3 Floyds add the first 'bittering' hop? I recently had a ZD and even though the IBUs is 50, I compared the bitterness to an IPA I made where the IBUs were 50 and the ZD was like 100 times smoother. I never, ever do a 60 minute boil. If anything, I will do a FWH addition but lately all of my hops go in with 20 minutes or less on the clock. And its the only boil addition I do anymore. a 20 minute Citra addition would be completely different if you tossed in the Citra at the 60 minute mark.

You want your grain to make a foundation in your beer, as you've explained. People have said that there aren't enough hops in the recipe to really classify this as an IPA. I want you to be happy with your finished product. We can only offer insight on what we have already done (and maybe done reluctantly because we were unsure of how things would turn out), and what the outcome was. Before I eliminated my 60 hop additions, I came here to the forum looking for advice. Before I started playing with my water, I came here for advice. I have received great advice from people who have been there, done that and encouraged me to try something I had never tried before.

You have clearly stated you goal: a red IPA which would not finish in the realm of a west coast-bitter IPA, and a flavor profile which showcases hops. Its scary as hell to imagine doing an IPA with one little FHW at the very beginning and not a pellet of hops until the boil is finished. Its scary as hell that is if you've never tried it. What a waste of money if it doesn't turn out the way you want, right? If you are shooting for a specific IBU there are a bunch of calculators you can use to help you hit your target. If you are going to do late hop additions, just set the 'boil time' on the calculator to like 1 minute. It will get you in the ballpark.

Water is a big deal too. scary as hell at first, but not really if you've done it once before. I noticed a monumental change in my beers after changing my water to distilled and adding just a little bit of gypsum and CaCl.

Here is my advice: If you want to show case your hops..... do your FWH as you described then.... dump a good amount of them hops in at the end of the boil (if you feel you must boil the hops to get bitterness, that's ok... just do it with like 5-10 minutes on the clock. You will get both flavor and bitterness. if you don't feel like you must boil the hops then as I said dump them in at the end) .... let them sit at the end of the boil when the temp is still greater than 210*.... cool her down naturally from anywhere between 140* (I know it seems low), to 170*. Dump in you next hop addition and let um sit..... The flavor and aroma of your hops will be there.

If you want to avoid the dry bitter west coast style, then use a yeast that wont 'dry' out the beer.... London Ale (seems weird in an American IPA, at least that's what I used to think), would help with that. Then dry hop.

:mug:
 
Zombie Dust isn't an IPA, it's an APA.

I'd lose either the 60 min or FWH and focus some late additions as flameout additions.
 
But when does 3 Floyds add the first 'bittering' hop?
Not entirely sure, but the clone for it that folks on the forum here put together calls for a FWH, 15-10-5-1 additions. And, for reference, I'm definitely not scared of trying something different. Thanks for the comprehensive feedback.

@arnobg: I'm aware ZD is an APA, I accidentally typed IPA. Either way it's a beer that's turned me on to Citra hops.

Anyway, I recently spoke to a master brewer at a local brewery, and his advice essentially echoes what I've received here. He did go on to say, in reference to having a complicated hop schedule vs. doing a hopstand/whirlpool, that it comes down to preference, because they will both acheive a similar effect. It just depends on how busy you want to be, but he said he prefers the whirlpool method.

That being said, thanks for everyone's input, here's a revised version:

OG: 1.071
FG: 1.014
ABV: 7.51%
IBU: 86.62
SRM: 16.06

Grain Bill (BIAB Mash@150, 90 minutes):
12 Red X
1 Munich Light
1 Melanoidin
0.5 Carapils

Hop Schedule (60 minute boil):
1 oz @ 1st Wort Citra
1 oz @10 Citra
1 oz @10 Amarillo
1.5 oz @ Hop stand Citra
1.5 oz @ Hop stand Amarillo
Hop Stand/Whirlpool for 30 minutes after flameout at no less than 160*.

Dry Hop x7 Days:
2.5 oz Amarillo
3.5 oz Citra

S-04/Mangrove Jack Burton Union/Danstar Windsor (Whichever they'll have available)
 
Not entirely sure, but the clone for it that folks on the forum here put together calls for a FWH, 15-10-5-1 additions. And, for reference, I'm definitely not scared of trying something different. Thanks for the comprehensive feedback.

@arnobg: I'm aware ZD is an APA, I accidentally typed IPA. Either way it's a beer that's turned me on to Citra hops.

Anyway, I recently spoke to a master brewer at a local brewery, and his advice essentially echoes what I've received here. He did go on to say, in reference to having a complicated hop schedule vs. doing a hopstand/whirlpool, that it comes down to preference, because they will both acheive a similar effect. It just depends on how busy you want to be, but he said he prefers the whirlpool method.

That being said, thanks for everyone's input, here's a revised version:

OG: 1.071
FG: 1.014
ABV: 7.51%
IBU: 86.62
SRM: 16.06

Grain Bill (BIAB Mash@150, 90 minutes):
12 Red X
1 Munich Light
1 Melanoidin
0.5 Carapils

Hop Schedule (60 minute boil):
1 oz @ 1st Wort Citra
1 oz @10 Citra
1 oz @10 Amarillo
1.5 oz @ Hop stand Citra
1.5 oz @ Hop stand Amarillo
Hop Stand/Whirlpool for 30 minutes after flameout at no less than 160*.

Dry Hop x7 Days:
2.5 oz Amarillo
3.5 oz Citra

S-04/Mangrove Jack Burton Union/Danstar Windsor (Whichever they'll have available)

I'm very interested to hear how it turns out, been wanting to do a good red IPA.
 
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