Strong bitter aftertaste

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ChrisMoss

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Hey guys, I'm looking for some advice in desperation to try to resolve a repeated issue I've had with my homebrew.

The flavour I'm getting is massively bitter, but it has a really bad taste to it. Not like a big iipa, more like a really really green beer. The flavour overwhelms all other flavours in the beer. It also has a slight smell to it too.

Other symptoms: not sure about this brew (it's only been bottled 3 weeks) but in other batches I've had really over carbed gushers. I think largely because I have under pitched yeast and unfinished beers have then fermented in the bottle and created what I think is carbonic acid flavour. All of those batches have had the same flavour in that my recent batch had.

My recent batch was a pale ale, expected OG was # and actual was # but I used the exact amount of grain, exact mash temp and time.

I've detailed my brew process as it was for my last batch (which had this issue) in the hopes that this will help someone to help me work it out!

Cheers guys

Brew process
- Sterilise/clean with VWP (similar to PBW) - I take everything apart inc taps, then rinse
- Use tap water - cold - from Manchester uk - and heat to mash temp. Our water is known to be quite soft and I've had 2 fantastic IPAs and 3 good said one from it (with 1 teaspoon of gypsum) turn out great in the past
(I mash in with 25L water as its BIAB)
- add brew bag and gradually add grains when water had reached mash temp (I use BIAB inside a 32L/ 5uk gallon plastic brew kettle)
- cover over with the lid (this has a small hole to vent steam) and leave to sit in bag for mash time - always 60 minutes
- sparge - this has varied over time. I have almost always run off all the wort, then poured it straight back in to the run over the grains - then drain off. Then, run about 4L water at 77c slowly over grains and drain off
(This last batch my friend and I circulated the 77c sparge water repeatedly through the grains a bit more - this could have been over sparging)
- bring to the boil and then after hot break, add hops to recipe (recent batch was only meant to be 40IBU or less) and boil for 1 hour. NB I always have the lid mostly over - at least half covered - to try to keep liquid from evaporating. I've learned recently I shouldn't cover it.
- add (sterilised) copper chilling coil @10mins
- at flameout - add 0mins hops and steep for 10 mins before turning on chiller. All 5 batches I have successfully done in the past I didn't steep and chilled right away.
- cover kettle during steep and period of chilling to avoid oxidation
- when chilled, add to primary fermenter (bucket), splash as much as possible, pitch yeast and put lid on - then shake up as much as possible
- leave at around 18-20c for fermentation time
- ferment for usually 10 days before dry hopping for about 7 days - all in primary - pellet hops in hop socks/mesh bags that have been sanitised and rinsed (as don't want VWP in the beer)
- transfer into bottling bucket with tap and bottling stick - all of which have had hot water soak with VWP - and bottle

That's pretty much it. I figured I'd had at least a few infected batches, as they end up with the same terrible bitter taste and are massively over carbed. Although often I haven't hit exact OG or FG with these brews so figured it might be that. However with recent batch OG was too high, FG was spot on, stayed stable for 10 days before bottling.

Sorry that's so long but I'm dying to get my process right as I've made some great beers and know I can do it - so don't know where I'm going wrong!

Cheers!

Chris
 
You probably could've just created a new thread, but I suppose it works here too.
The only thing that stands out to me as far as a reason for a bitter flavor is that you didn't rinse the cleaner/steriliser.

From their website:

I forgot to rinse out the equipment. Will my beer/wine be OK?
All equipment should be rinsed before use. Anything left in a fermenting vessel will affect the taste.

As far as brewing techniques, though, some questions/comments:

1) Are you saying that you pour the wort back over the grains after transferring it into the BK? After your mash is complete, just give it a really good stir, then transfer the wort out, then pour in your sparge water. What you're doing is called batch sparging. Then when you pour in the sparge water, stir the ever-living crap out of it, and transfer that into the BK. There's not really any need to be doing all that transferring and re-pouring. It is slightly possible that your sparge water pH is getting too high, and combined with 77C temp, could possibly be drawing out some tannins, but I doubt it. Though you may look at getting a water report.

2) If you can, try to keep that lid off during the boil. You want the vapor to escape. Even while chilling, I would have the lid off. This will allow you to stir while chilling to be able to chill as quickly as possible. But also the compounds that could possibly form DMS will still be driven off while there's steam coming off the wort. The hot-side aeration (HSA) thing has been proven by quite a number of homebrewers to not really be a problem at our scale. Especially if the beer is being consumed fairly quickly (like less than 6 months). I always start stirring hard when I start chilling. You really do want lots of oxygen going with the wort into the fermentor. Though if you're really worried about HSA, you should start stirring really hard at about 40C.

3) If you don't cool before you do the hopstand addition, you probably need to account for about another 5 IBUs or so. That number will go up the more hops you have in the boil, aka the more IBUs you're getting out of the boil. But those extra 5 shouldn't be causing an overwhelming amount of bitterness.

4) Even if you're under-pitching, if you make sure your FG is stable (by getting 2 similar readings that are 2 days apart), it's likely your yeast has finished fermentation. Though, of course you want to use a calculator to make sure you're pitching the correct amount of viable yeast each time to ensure a healthy fermentation with the appropriate levels of flavor compounds. So if you're constantly getting gushers, then you need to start making sure you're using the correct amount of priming sugar, or you're getting an infection somewhere.

5) Again, not going to cause your major bitterness problem, but you want to make sure that 18-20C is the temperature of the beer. If it's room temperature, depending upon the yeast and the OG of the beer, the fermentor temperature can be 5-9C hotter than that. Check out this thread for proof of that: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=553916

Hope this helps. The biggest concern though, for that extreme bitterness off-flavor, seems to be that you're not rinsing off that VWP from your bottles.

From the other thread.
 
Thanks for the detailed reply! I actually have been rinsing the VWP from everything I clean with it, then for bottling I use VWP, then rinse lots, then use star San and drain. So I don't think the flavour could be from the cleaners, but I guess there's a chance that because I don't sanitise brew stuff and just drain with star San prior to brewing/fermenting, I wondered whether I'm basically cleaning, then rinsing, then letting stuff get in to infect the beer when it ferments?
 
Thanks for the detailed reply! I actually have been rinsing the VWP from everything I clean with it, then for bottling I use VWP, then rinse lots, then use star San and drain. So I don't think the flavour could be from the cleaners, but I guess there's a chance that because I don't sanitise brew stuff and just drain with star San prior to brewing/fermenting, I wondered whether I'm basically cleaning, then rinsing, then letting stuff get in to infect the beer when it ferments?

I think I didn't quite understand sparging so will follow your directions in future. I cool with a chiller which brings it down to about 25c in maybe 20mins. I add a lot of flameout hops (maybe 30+g or more) but yeah the massive nasty bitterness doesn't just taste like another 5-10 IBUs.

What I don't get is that if my yeast is finishing and I pitched the right amount (which I certainly did for the last one), I don't get where the bad flavour comes from. Also, if it is an infection, I've never seen an exact description in the standard articles on off flavours. I'll see if it's a gusher when I open another I think.
 
Thanks for the detailed reply! I actually have been rinsing the VWP from everything I clean with it, then for bottling I use VWP, then rinse lots, then use star San and drain. So I don't think the flavour could be from the cleaners, but I guess there's a chance that because I don't sanitise brew stuff and just drain with star San prior to brewing/fermenting, I wondered whether I'm basically cleaning, then rinsing, then letting stuff get in to infect the beer when it ferments?

I think I didn't quite understand sparging so will follow your directions in future. I cool with a chiller which brings it down to about 25c in maybe 20mins. I add a lot of flameout hops (maybe 30+g or more) but yeah the massive nasty bitterness doesn't just taste like another 5-10 IBUs.

What I don't get is that if my yeast is finishing and I pitched the right amount (which I certainly did for the last one), I don't get where the bad flavour comes from. Also, if it is an infection, I've never seen an exact description in the standard articles on off flavours. I'll see if it's a gusher when I open another I think.

Ok, gotcha. You didn't mention rinsing it off. You don't need to be sanitizing anything on the hot side (meaning anything that touches your wort before it's cooled). So if you're sanitizing your mash tun, and your bk, and not rinsing the starsan off, then that could possibly be it.

That's pretty decent time for cooling, though you really want to be getting it down to around 19-20C for pitching. And you can get it even quicker than 20 mins if you also stir while cooling. And again, no need for the lid to be on. In fact, while there's still steam, you want the lid to be off.

If you know fermentation is finished, and there's not visible signs of infection, then you're likely using too much priming sugar. Are you using an online calculator for that? If you are using the right amount of sugar, then it's probably an infection. If you're not getting any infection before bottling, then I would seriously check your bottling methods and equipment.

Are you doing anything to control ferment temps?
 
Hi David/josh,

So before now I've just been using VWP before boil for anything that touches hot wort. Not using star San then at all (just thinking I need to build in a sanitation- no rinse- step in everything that touches cooled wort after chilling.

I'll definitely be sure to leave the lid off until all steam has gone in future. Cooling can take 30 mins max I think.

Fermentation definitely finished in this last batch and the beer looked fine. But importantly it tasted bad at bottling (straight from bottling bucket) when it had only been siphoned like 5 mins before. So don't think that amount of horrible bitter flavour could develop in that time? Which made me assume it must have been between when the wort left the kettle and when the batch was bottled.

For cleaning my fermenter - I always have used VWP with hot water, soaked, then rinsed lots and drain dry. Then add wort (from a height to aerate), agitated (in past just by shaking, recently with very well sterilised whisk but have had this flavour before even started using whisk) then put bubbler in. Only time after that it's disturbed is when I add dry hops. This is in 2 steps. Soak hop sock in VWP, rinse, then add hops and chuck it in.

Re fermentation temps, this last batch had approx 17-20c range almost the whole time. Temp sticker is on outside of fermenting bucket, but I figure it's accurate. Have had beers ferment at this temp before and come out ok.

Only other off flavour was a bit of a buttery smell, but mainly massive bitter taste that's overwhelming and not from IBUs based on the recipe.

Given that I've brewed batches (and ipa and a porter) recently where this bad flavour didn't develop, do we think it's an infection? If so... wondering when that's happening.

What do you guys think?

Cheers again

Chris
 
Hi David/josh,

So before now I've just been using VWP before boil for anything that touches hot wort. Not using star San then at all (just thinking I need to build in a sanitation- no rinse- step in everything that touches cooled wort after chilling.

I'll definitely be sure to leave the lid off until all steam has gone in future. Cooling can take 30 mins max I think.

Fermentation definitely finished in this last batch and the beer looked fine. But importantly it tasted bad at bottling (straight from bottling bucket) when it had only been siphoned like 5 mins before. So don't think that amount of horrible bitter flavour could develop in that time? Which made me assume it must have been between when the wort left the kettle and when the batch was bottled.

For cleaning my fermenter - I always have used VWP with hot water, soaked, then rinsed lots and drain dry. Then add wort (from a height to aerate), agitated (in past just by shaking, recently with very well sterilised whisk but have had this flavour before even started using whisk) then put bubbler in. Only time after that it's disturbed is when I add dry hops. This is in 2 steps. Soak hop sock in VWP, rinse, then add hops and chuck it in.

Re fermentation temps, this last batch had approx 17-20c range almost the whole time. Temp sticker is on outside of fermenting bucket, but I figure it's accurate. Have had beers ferment at this temp before and come out ok.

Only other off flavour was a bit of a buttery smell, but mainly massive bitter taste that's overwhelming and not from IBUs based on the recipe.

Given that I've brewed batches (and ipa and a porter) recently where this bad flavour didn't develop, do we think it's an infection? If so... wondering when that's happening.

What do you guys think?

Cheers again

Chris

Man, to be honest it sounds like you're pretty much doing everything right. The only thing I can comment on from the above is your dry hopping. If you're not saving the yeast, just throw them directly into the fermenter. Or at least, you need to soak the bag in starsan after you've used the vwp. If it's an infection, then it's likely coming from that.

Have you had the off-flavor only in the last few batches? Or have you had it once or twice, then made a good one, then the off-flavor came back again?

I think the buttery flavor (likely diacetyl, tastes/smells a lot like theater popcorn?) doesn't necessarily have to do with the bitter flavor. I also don't really know of any infection that would cause an overwhelming bitter flavor. Are you sure it's not just like a harsh flavor, like a big shot of whiskey will feel like, for example?

One question you still haven't answered, are you using an online calculator for your priming sugar? This will help determine if these batches have been infected, or if you're just using too much sugar. But even then, are you sure your scale is accurate?

The next step will be to start looking over your recipes and brewing techniques. If you're doing all grain, what is your sparge like? What is your water like? It could possibly be that you're getting an overwhelming amount of astringency (the feeling you would get if you sucked on a teabag, or if you let tea steep for way too long). Or it could possibly be that you're calculating your IBUs incorrectly. For instance, I usually top up with quite a bit of water at the end of the boil. But in order to get closer to the IBUs that I want, I have to use more hops in order to achieve that. If, for some reason, I ended up not topping off with the amount that I had calculated for, I would end up with more bitterness in the final product.

But before we start thinking about that, the answers to the other questions will be helpful in determining what's going on.
 
Hey - thanks again for the reply. So I use the hop bag to save having to cold crash before bottling, but you're right I need to sanitise that bag with starsan or just throw them in there.

I've had the flavour before in very early batches (pale ales) then brewed a few saisons and an ipa which were great, then a bad batch, then a good porter, followed by the recent bad batch. All bad batches have had that bitter flavour and all (although waiting to see with the recent one) have been gushers. Some may not have finished fermenting whilst others had met their planned FG and still that happened.

I agree the diacetyl is probably just a standard off flavour. The overwhelming bitterness is something which starts at bottling and gets worse. I would say it was carbonic acid from the carbonation, but it tastes bad right from the start, although I think the carbonic acid is probably what makes it get worse. It's not a harsh alcohol flavour.

I use brewer's friend to calculate priming sugar and in the past it's worked well and produced well carbed beers.

My sparge had previously been really over the top - circulating all wort through the bag (BIAB) first then putting 77c water through the grain and then recirculating it. I noticed that this recipe had a planned OG of 1.046 but it came out at 1.052 so maybe it's astringency?

I'm sticking to recipe for IBUs so hopefully that's ok - the recipes are good quality - from bertus brewery online. That's even with producing the planned 18-19L of wort/beer too.

Thanks for helping work this one out - it's almost enough to put me off home brewing when you get bad batch after bad batch!

Chris
 
Hey - thanks again for the reply. So I use the hop bag to save having to cold crash before bottling, but you're right I need to sanitise that bag with starsan or just throw them in there.

I've had the flavour before in very early batches (pale ales) then brewed a few saisons and an ipa which were great, then a bad batch, then a good porter, followed by the recent bad batch. All bad batches have had that bitter flavour and all (although waiting to see with the recent one) have been gushers. Some may not have finished fermenting whilst others had met their planned FG and still that happened.

I agree the diacetyl is probably just a standard off flavour. The overwhelming bitterness is something which starts at bottling and gets worse. I would say it was carbonic acid from the carbonation, but it tastes bad right from the start, although I think the carbonic acid is probably what makes it get worse. It's not a harsh alcohol flavour.

I use brewer's friend to calculate priming sugar and in the past it's worked well and produced well carbed beers.

My sparge had previously been really over the top - circulating all wort through the bag (BIAB) first then putting 77c water through the grain and then recirculating it. I noticed that this recipe had a planned OG of 1.046 but it came out at 1.052 so maybe it's astringency?

I'm sticking to recipe for IBUs so hopefully that's ok - the recipes are good quality - from bertus brewery online. That's even with producing the planned 18-19L of wort/beer too.

Thanks for helping work this one out - it's almost enough to put me off home brewing when you get bad batch after bad batch!

Chris

I completely understand. But the thing to remember when you're starting to feel a bit down is that you are making good batches. So you're doing something right.

The only way to know if it's astringency, then, would be to take pH readings after you've added in the water and grains for the sparge. Astringency comes from high temps plus high pH. So if you're not getting either one of those, then it's not your problem.

Have you used the same fermenting vessel for the ones that ended up being gushers and the ones that came out fine?

If that bad flavor is coming out before bottling, then it's not your bottling techniques that are suspect. It's something to do with your fermentation. Is there anything else that these bad batches have in common, besides the gusher? Are you re-pitching yeast from previous batches, or using new yeast every time? What yeast are you using?

Here is some info on diacetyl that I found useful:
http://www.professorbeer.com/articles/diacetyl.html

The gushers lead me to believe you're getting some kind of infection, provided you haven't had gushers on your good batches. If you're using a priming sugar calculator, the only reason you would be over-priming is if your scale is off. That one is easy enough to test.
 
A wild yeast infection might do some of the things you said. It will continue to ferment all of the residual sugars and with less sugars the bitterness will be more pronounced. It will also create gushers, so if you're using the correct amount of priming sugar and waiting until fermentation is complete this could explain it.

I asked about the off flavors because a had a few batches have these infections and what I discovered is that after about a month or three in the bottle, the beer would also start to have a slight medicinal taste (the last batch before I figured out what was happening had this off taste from the start). I also noticed that on each of these batches my final gravity came in many points below what I was expecting.
 
Hey again

Thanks for the words of support - I've got my ass in gear and got the recipe out for the next batch of IPA. This is a recipe for a beer I've made successfully before so I figure if I match my brewing techniques there's not reason it should turn out bad.

Update - the pale ale I brewed recently that we've been discussing is now a gusher. It's slow, but it's been in bottle for 4 weeks now and after 10 minutes the foam had made it's way well out of the bottle. So... here's what I've noticed about the bad flavour:
1. When I first tasted it at bottling, it tasted very bitter. This beer was meant to be 40IBU (recipe here http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2014/12/micro-pale-ale-30.html). Interestingly, the IPA i successfully brewed previously tasted absolutely fantastic when it was bottled - not overly bitter - fantastic hop flavour - good enough to drink from the bottling bucket! THAT beer, was a planned 67IBUS (recipe here http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2013/05/east-valley-crossfit-ipa.html).

So... this leads me to believe something definitely went wrong with the process of the recent beer and the bitterness I tasted at bottling wasn't just green beer. However, having tasted the recent beer at 3 weeks, the flavour was just plain for about 5 seconds, then the aftertaste was horrendously bitter. Today, at 4 weeks, the horrible bitter flavour is instant, and the bottle is a gusher.

I have never checked my mash ph although I add a teaspoon of gypsum to my grist as advised by local homebrew store - and have produced good batches before - mostly pale ales or saisons with pale malts. This beer that went wrong was also mashed in at 70c (158f) so I don't think it was too high.

The fermenting vessel I used was the same as the one used for a porter relatively recently which turned out fine. However, the batch immediately before this one did turn out bad with the same flavour as the recent bad batch. So there's one thing - chance the vessel held onto some infection?

I'm not re-pitching yeast, always using new yeast from a vial and actually in the recent batch that went wrong, I even sterilised the outside of the jar which I haven't even bothered to do before!

What all the bad batches have in common is:
they are gushers
they have a really bad bitter flavour which is present at bottling, an aftertaste after about 2 weeks and once they reach 4-6 weeks the taste is overwhelming and so so bad
they are pale ales/ipas (although I have brewed a good IPA in the middle)
every bottle of the batches is bad - it's not one or two bottles

Finally, none of my good batches have been gushers and they've always had the right level of carbonation.

So I'm buying a new fermenting bucket this time around and definitely going to sanitise anything on the cold/ferment side with foaming starsan (no-rinse) after sterlising with VWP. What do you guys think?
 
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