HERMS recirc rate vs sparge rate

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kevink

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For those of you who fly sparge with a HERMS system, do you sparge at the same rate that you recirc at or do you throttle back? With my setup, I can recirc with my Chugger wide opened, but I'm not sure if I want to sparge at that rate or not. Are there any problems in doing so?
 
For those of you who fly sparge with a HERMS system, do you sparge at the same rate that you recirc at or do you throttle back? With my setup, I can recirc with my Chugger wide opened, but I'm not sure if I want to sparge at that rate or not. Are there any problems in doing so?

You don't want to sparge that fast if you want to maximize efficiency and/or avoid channelling.

If I'm in a hurry, I'll batch sparge because I run it wide open then, but if I'm fly sparging/continuous sparging I'll slow down quite a lot. 1 quart/minute is pretty practical and it seems to optimize extraction, allowing some time savings. Since I start with 12 gallons in my kettle, that takes about 45 minutes.
 
Thanks! I understand how sparging on the fast side might hurt efficiency, but I don't get how it can cause channelling. If I maintain a few inches of water over the grainbed during sparging, how would it be different than mashing? Would you say I have channelling during the mash, too? Perhaps it depends on the false bottom/manifold specifics?
 
Thanks! I understand how sparging on the fast side might hurt efficiency, but I don't get how it can cause channelling. If I maintain a few inches of water over the grainbed during sparging, how would it be different than mashing? Would you say I have channelling during the mash, too? Perhaps it depends on the false bottom/manifold specifics?

It depends on the false bottom, but if the grainbed isn't fairly "fluid", and the liquid in the mash pretty free flowing, channeling can happen during a fairly quick sparge (liquid always chooses the path of least resistance).
 
So the quicker you sparge, the less time the sparge water has to get to the more dense portions of the grainbed to rinse those grains. Is that what it comes down to?

If sparge rate is dependent on false bottom construction, what would you recommend for this one? Still 1qt/min? Here's my MT:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6328621&postcount=177

I guess I could just calculate efficiency at different flow rates to see where it drops off, but I would like a starting point.
 
Does anyone else have any thoughts on the ideal sparge rate? What's everyone else doing and what's your system?
 
Does anyone else have any thoughts on the ideal sparge rate? What's everyone else doing and what's your system?

1 quart/minute is the home brew standard as outlined by John Palmer who also stated that the slower the draining of the wort the more sugars you will extract (say a point or two).

The issue with my sparge arm is that it has to flow at a certain rate before it starts spinning so a rule of thumb would be to sparge as slowly as you can.

If you're talking about fly sparging as you recirculate then I read in one article that you should instead place the outlet from the pump (i.e. the silicone tube) below the surface of the wort as fly sparging would instigate Hot Side Aeration (and splashing as well I imagine). I can't say for sure although I plan to do it as part of new HERMs in my next brew.
 
It's fine if the sparge arm doesn't spin. Most of them don't, and the spinning doesn't really help with anything.

Yes the spinning sparge arm is for fly sparging at a fast rate where the top of the grainbed is dry. This is the reason they are not practical in most home brew setups vs a silicone hose with something to deflect the output to prevent channeling...
 
Even when I'm actually sparging (rather than recirculating)? Do you use a sparge arm for recirculating then?

This is what I use for both. When recirculating, I open the pump outlet valve up all the way. When sparging, I close the valve until I am pumping somewhere around 1 quart per minute, and I let that trickle onto the layer of water on top of the grain bed.
 
I recirc my RIMS at ~1gpm from a 15G Blichmann with false bottom.

I used to lauter at 1 qt/min, but found i got exactly the same efficiency running at 1gpm.
 
I recirc my RIMS at ~1gpm from a 15G Blichmann with false bottom.

I used to lauter at 1 qt/min, but found i got exactly the same efficiency running at 1gpm.

It must be true, I can imagine with such a constant flow of water that the grains must be thoroughly soaked of their sugar, have you ever thought about doing a super thin mash (>3qt/lb) without a sparge as I read this method creates better quality beers (although the price of efficiency) and just seemed like something that would work very well with a HERMs system.
 
It must be true, I can imagine with such a constant flow of water that the grains must be thoroughly soaked of their sugar, have you ever thought about doing a super thin mash (>3qt/lb) without a sparge as I read this method creates better quality beers (although the price of efficiency) and just seemed like something that would work very well with a HERMs system.

I do 1.5 qt/lb which I already find to be very easy to work with. 3 qt/lb is a no go for me as i wouldn't be able to fit much grain into my 15G tun. Plus i have a 20G HLT so not really needed.

1-2h recirc at 1gpm leads to some beautiful crystal clear wort though.
 
This is what I use for both. When recirculating, I open the pump outlet valve up all the way. When sparging, I close the valve until I am pumping somewhere around 1 quart per minute, and I let that trickle onto the layer of water on top of the grain bed.

I use the same only I have a the locline with smaller holes throughout the lower section which I molded into a ring I raise and lower. I recirculate at usually between 1.5 and 1.8 gallons per minute according to my flow meter. I used to sparge slower but also found sparging quicker had no measurable effect.
These low rates always made me question why so many say the small dc pumps wont work.... To me they work great and make more sense than having a huge chugger style pump and restricting its output down to 1-2 gpm?
 
I have a Blichmann 15 gallon mash tun with a false bottom. I also have a HERMS system. Recirculating during the mash and fly sparging are two separate things. I try to recirculate during the mash as fast as I can without risking a stuck mash. I don't worry about hot side aeration as my outlet back into the mash tun is submerged. When sparging, I want to go as slow as is practical. For whatever reason, I have found that I need to sparge at a rate of about 1/2 quart per minute to get my best efficiency. I also keep at least two inches of sparge water on top of the grain bed until all of the sparge water has been used. I have no science or calculations to back this up - just my personal experience. I was having trouble getting the mash efficiency I expected at 1 quart per minute. Experiment, take notes, and you will find your own sweet spot for your equipment and process.
 

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