Tips for huge beer using biab

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pretzelb

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After a few years of brewing I finally got the courage (or I've gone insane) and decided to try the recipe for barley wine in the Brewing Classic Styles book. I've enjoyed the recipes in this book and this one has intrigued me and scared me for years.

The grain bill is around 25.5 lbs and hops are about 6.5 oz. This is well over the largest grain bill I've attempted. I threw the recipe into BeerSmith2 just to record all the stats, then I went to the Priceless calculator. I was going to try a sparge step but with this amount of grains I'm looking at an insanely think mash ratio. If I sparge with 3g of water the mash thickness is about .98. My MT is a square 12g Igloo cooler that should be up to the size along with my new Wilser bag. If I sparge I would drain, squeeze, sparge, stir, let rest 10 min, then drain/squeeze as needed.

Any tips? Should I forget the sparge and do full volume and then squeeze? Other things to consider?
 
I would skip the sparge. I haven't done a beer that big yet, my largest grain bill was 17lbs.. I found that I was still able to get decent efficiency with no sparge and just A LOT of squeezing. I also would recommend a 90 minute mash in order to help boost your efficiency a few %.

I'm right behind you with a barleywine, so please let us know how this turns out!
 
After a few years of brewing I finally got the courage (or I've gone insane) and decided to try the recipe for barley wine in the Brewing Classic Styles book. I've enjoyed the recipes in this book and this one has intrigued me and scared me for years.

The grain bill is around 25.5 lbs and hops are about 6.5 oz. This is well over the largest grain bill I've attempted. I threw the recipe into BeerSmith2 just to record all the stats, then I went to the Priceless calculator. I was going to try a sparge step but with this amount of grains I'm looking at an insanely think mash ratio. If I sparge with 3g of water the mash thickness is about .98. My MT is a square 12g Igloo cooler that should be up to the size along with my new Wilser bag. If I sparge I would drain, squeeze, sparge, stir, let rest 10 min, then drain/squeeze as needed.

Any tips? Should I forget the sparge and do full volume and then squeeze? Other things to consider?

Do a 2.5-3 gallon batch and you'll be able to mash thin, probably at full volume, sparge a little if needed and do a long boil to get to the desired OG and planned volume.
 
Here are some thoughts about doing a BIAB Barley wine...

- I held back the specialty malts so I could get more base malt in the mash tun.
- Squeeze the hell out of the bag to get your sugars out.
- Have some DME on hand in case you didn't get the amount of extract you needed
- Have a full tank of propane in case you need to boil longer to concentrate your gravity.
 
The new version of the Priceless calculator does a mash/sparge results analysis in addition to just figuring volumes and temps. It will give you first and second runnings SG's and volumes. You can use it to do what ifs for sparge/no-sparge, different conversion efficiencies, etc. Playing around with the input parameters can tell you if what you are planning has a chance of giving you the batch volume and OG you are targeting.

Brew on :mug:
 
Came across this a month or so ago, can't remember if it was from zymurgist, byo, beersmith podcast etc. Supposedly it gives higher mash efficiency for big brews, extends brewday by an additional mash (and some heating time) and should give better yield than extending the boil by an hour.

You could to two mashes, each with half the grain, but use the full water volume for the first mash, or do a little bit of sparging to raise your lauter efficiency.

Example: 25 lb grain bill. Total water needed, ~8.77G. 5.5G batch size.

Strike with 12.5Lbs, strike with 6.77G, sparge with 2G. Take runnings, combine.

Strike again into 12.5 Lb using the combined runnings as the strike water.

In general, I now sparge anytime my mash thickness will be above 1.75 qt/lb. Seems to give the highest mash efficiency for my setup.
 
The new version of the Priceless calculator does a mash/sparge results analysis in addition to just figuring volumes and temps. It will give you first and second runnings SG's and volumes. You can use it to do what ifs for sparge/no-sparge, different conversion efficiencies, etc. Playing around with the input parameters can tell you if what you are planning has a chance of giving you the batch volume and OG you are targeting.

Brew on :mug:

Oh will you look at that. I just skipped that part.

Looking at the numbers in the mash analysis if I use a 3g sparge it is close to target from the book, and a 4g sparge is even a bit closer. Wait, had to change the conversion efficiency. Now it is a bit lower but still not terrible. Interesting.
 
I would skip the sparge. I haven't done a beer that big yet, my largest grain bill was 17lbs.. I found that I was still able to get decent efficiency with no sparge and just A LOT of squeezing. I also would recommend a 90 minute mash in order to help boost your efficiency a few %.

I'm right behind you with a barleywine, so please let us know how this turns out!

I forgot to mention that recipe does call for a 149 mash and recommends 90 minutes.

I didn't bring this up but should I be paying extra attention to the crush? My mill is set below credit card level but maybe I should double crush this time?
 
I forgot to mention that recipe does call for a 149 mash and recommends 90 minutes.

I didn't bring this up but should I be paying extra attention to the crush? My mill is set below credit card level but maybe I should double crush this time?

Crushing finer will help get your conversion efficiency up. I set my mill at 0.016" for BIAB, and others crush even finer.

Brew on :mug:
 
I did this type of thing once and I will not do it again (12% RIS). Efficiency was just painfully low since there was so much grain and it so thick. I had to add in some DME.

I have pushed the easy button twice since and used Marris Otter LME as a late addition (12% Barleywine and a 12% RIS I made on Sunday). Absolutely nothing wrong with being an all grain brewer, but going back to partial mash on the really big beers IMO.
 
I've updated my BIAB lauter efficiency for no-sparge (full volume mash) and equal runnings sparge chart for larger grain bills. This is the absolute best mash efficiency you can get with either method, if you get 100% conversion efficiency. If your conversion efficiency is less than 100%, then the mash efficiency will be lower than the lauter efficiency. To determine your mash efficiency, multiply the conversion efficiency times the lauter efficiency. The different lines represent different levels of apparent grain absorption (how well you drain/squeeze), and for the sparged cases, assume you drain/squeeze equally for initial drain and sparge drain.

BIAB No Sparge vs Sparge big beers.png

Brew on :mug:
 
I've updated my BIAB lauter efficiency for no-sparge (full volume mash) and equal runnings sparge chart for larger grain bills. This is the absolute best mash efficiency you can get with either method, if you get 100% conversion efficiency. If your conversion efficiency is less than 100%, then the mash efficiency will be lower than the lauter efficiency. To determine your mash efficiency, multiply the conversion efficiency times the lauter efficiency. The different lines represent different levels of apparent grain absorption (how well you drain/squeeze), and for the sparged cases, assume you drain/squeeze equally for initial drain and sparge drain.

View attachment 318421

Brew on :mug:

First can you remind me on what it would take to get 100% conversion efficiency? I don't like making assumptions.

Second, I'm not sure I get the chart. I can see the solid lines are no-sparge while dashed are sparge. But I don't understand what went into the different results. Since it says "apparent" it sounds like a result and not a controllable input. The .04 sparge appears to be the winner but I'm not sure I understand what went into that result vs the .12. Is this just how much you squeeze?
 
I did this type of thing once and I will not do it again (12% RIS). Efficiency was just painfully low since there was so much grain and it so thick. I had to add in some DME.

I have pushed the easy button twice since and used Marris Otter LME as a late addition (12% Barleywine and a 12% RIS I made on Sunday). Absolutely nothing wrong with being an all grain brewer, but going back to partial mash on the really big beers IMO.

At the LHBS the owner asked "What are you making" to which I replied "Probably a big mistake".

This recipe is insanely huge over everything I've done over the years. I have DME just in case. I'm trying to not get my hopes up so I won't get upset.
 
First can you remind me on what it would take to get 100% conversion efficiency? I don't like making assumptions.

Second, I'm not sure I get the chart. I can see the solid lines are no-sparge while dashed are sparge. But I don't understand what went into the different results. Since it says "apparent" it sounds like a result and not a controllable input. The .04 sparge appears to be the winner but I'm not sure I understand what went into that result vs the .12. Is this just how much you squeeze?

To get 100% (or close to it) conversion efficiency you need to let the mash proceed long enough for your particular crush size and mash temp. The actual conversion rate will depend on grit size, mash temp, mash thickness, and mash pH (if out of range.)
Smaller grits => faster conversion
Higher temp => faster conversion
Thinner mash => faster conversion
pH < 5.2 or pH > 5.8 => slower conversion​
With so many variables that are different for each brewer's process, it is just about impossible to give a definitive answer for how long to mash. Fortunately, you can measure the degree of conversion during the mash, and continue mashing until you reach an acceptable conversion percentage (or the conversion stalls out due to suboptimal mash conditions.) You monitor by taking SG readings of the wort in the mash. The wort should be stirred well prior to sampling to make sure the sugar is evenly distributed. You then compare the SG to the maximum value for you mash thickness using the table found here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Conversion_efficiency. Your conversion efficiency is then:
(Measured_SG - 1) / (Table_SG - 1)​

It's called "apparent" absorption because it is based on wort volume collected, rather than how much of the original water was collected in the kettle. Since the wort volume is partially sugar, the water volume collected is less than the wort volume collected. But the absorption numbers everyone uses are calculated as
(Brewing_Water - Wort_Collected) / Grain_Weight.​
The true absorption is higher than the apparent absorption. The amount of absorption (both apparent and true) is affected by how well you drain/squeeze. In traditional MLT's the apparent absorption is about 0.12 gal/lb. In BIAB without squeezing, you can get around 0.09 - 0.10 gal/lb since the bag itself provides a little squeezing action. If you squeeze you can get as low as 0.045 gal/lb, but most folks end up in the 0.06 - 0.08 gal/lb range. You should measure the apparent absorption rate for your particular process, and input that rate into the volume/efficiency calculators.

Brew on :mug:
 
How long of a boil did you spec in BeerSmith? If 60 min try 120 min, this will allow you to use more water overall then when you reserve some for a sparge the mash won't be quite as thick and you'll get higher efficiency overall. I always missed my OG on 1.070+ beers until I started doing this. Unfortunately it adds another hour to your brew day, but then again you aren't making a Cream Ale :D

Some more info HERE
 
Tips.....
Grind fine, mash long, drain or squeeze thoroughly, sparge once or twice producing as equal volumes as possible.

Boil long to maximize efficiency of more runnings.
 
As someone else said; I would do a smaller volume. Unless you have a 20 plus gallon kettle.

When I do big beers using BIAB I always do a 3.5 gallon batch and account for an extra gallon of boil off. I've achieved 11% with 70% efficiency.

I do a .025 crush but I think anything less than that is not going to get you more efficiency. I have dust at that setting.

A longer mash will surely help.
 
How long of a boil did you spec in BeerSmith? If 60 min try 120 min, this will allow you to use more water overall then when you reserve some for a sparge the mash won't be quite as thick and you'll get higher efficiency overall. I always missed my OG on 1.070+ beers until I started doing this. Unfortunately it adds another hour to your brew day, but then again you aren't making a Cream Ale :D

Some more info HERE

Try a longer mash. You'd be surprised at what an extra 15 minutes will give you.
 
I just did a 25 lb mash and hopefully you can learn from my lessons....


1) If you're using Beersmith, be hugely mindful of your absorption rates. I ended up with about 3.5-4.0 gallons of wort when I should have ended up with a batch of 6. Most of my batch size was attributed to loss of wort in absorption...

2) Have a plan on how you're going to remove your bag or bucket at mash out. It's going to be heavy as hell. In my case I used a bag, and in my case the bag expanded over the rim of the kettle which led to a pretty big mess (and a loss of volume)

3) Extending the mash is good advice. I extended mine 15 minutes, and I used the iodine test.
 
I just did a 25 lb mash and hopefully you can learn from my lessons....


1) If you're using Beersmith, be hugely mindful of your absorption rates. I ended up with about 3.5-4.0 gallons of wort when I should have ended up with a batch of 6. Most of my batch size was attributed to loss of wort in absorption...

2) Have a plan on how you're going to remove your bag or bucket at mash out. It's going to be heavy as hell. In my case I used a bag, and in my case the bag expanded over the rim of the kettle which led to a pretty big mess (and a loss of volume)

3) Extending the mash is good advice. I extended mine 15 minutes, and I used the iodine test.

Use three bags?
 
I used 2 bags and didn't have any problems. It was the weight and the expansion/overhang of the bags that caused me major problems. I noted on my recipe that next year when I make this I will buy a pulley system first.
 
2 three dollar food safe white buckets a bag goes in each then pour water cause if waters in there cannonball! What about big food safe bucket just a few holes fit over kettle and contain mess
 
I used 2 bags and didn't have any problems. It was the weight and the expansion/overhang of the bags that caused me major problems. I noted on my recipe that next year when I make this I will buy a pulley system first.

While you're at it, get a proper biab bag. The filter and cleanup is much easier when it's actually the right materials.
 
Well I started the brew day and it is already showing signs of a tough day. My mill gave me fits so I had to widen the gap, then close it and grind again. I was supposed to strike in at 167 but instead I went with 176 on purpose and glad I did. The mash is showing 142 at times and 152 and my target is 149. This is insanely thick. I'm going to give it 15 and check again. I will also heat a gallon of water just in case. 90 minute mash started.

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make sure you're giving it very good stirs before temping. With the thick dense mixture you honestly should not be having huge temp swings. It should be able to hold heat actually better.
 
Hope it goes well! If you're fluctuating in temps that much you need to stir. Even if I stir really well after 30mins I'll have a few degree stratification from top-to-bottom.

It should be fine. Stir like crazy and take multiple temp readings before you add any boiling water.
 
I think the mash is so thick the thermapen hits pockets of air. This mash is shoveled instead of being stirred. Going to be interesting. Let's see what I get for gravity readings after an hour of mash. Going to boil water for a yeast starter and get my sparge water heated.

View attachment 1448470058802.jpg
 
Yep I am getting a brew in a basket stainless solution. Working on that today.


Just realize that a stainless basket would make this situation worse, as a volume of water or dead space exists between the basket and kettle, further reducing the water available for the mash.

Not a big deal for session beers? But with high gravity it helps minimize strike vol if all the water is available to the mash, just not the water in the basket.

A bag lines the entire kettle? A basket does not.

This actually comes into play for both the mash and sparge, if you think you have a stiff mash now, it would be much more so with a basket.

A basket may leave about a gallon b/w the basket and kettle, in an extreme situation like this where every little bit of water helps, I think a basket may be quite limiting.
 
I drastically oversized my kettle for those exact reasons. Never go cheap on kettle size.
 
I drastically oversized my kettle for those exact reasons. Never go cheap on kettle size.


Kettle size is irrelevant regarding basket vs bag. With a basket you will always have some volume of water outside the basket, it can be of consequence with larger beers and thicker mashes and sparges.

In the situation above, if a gallon of strike was outside the basket, a very thick mash would be pushed to require more water, resulting in less available to sparge with.

Your minimum strike and sparge volumes may be significantly higher using a basket vs bag, the same applies to using a FB with space underneath.
 
At 90 minutes I had 25.4 brix with a target of 27. Let it sit another 10 and hit 27. Drained to BK and tried to squeeze. About 3.3g at 27.4 brix. Added the 4g sparge, mixed, let sit for 10 then drained. About 17 brix on 2nd running. Squeezed until about 7.4g.

What a mess.
 
I think the mash is so thick the thermapen hits pockets of air. This mash is shoveled instead of being stirred. Going to be interesting. Let's see what I get for gravity readings after an hour of mash. Going to boil water for a yeast starter and get my sparge water heated.

A little late, but looks like you've got room for a little more water.
 
Your minimum strike and sparge volumes may be significantly higher using a basket vs bag, the same applies to using a FB with space underneath.

One nice thing about most SS basket systems is they include the limits. It can help make the decisions. The Brew Boss even had profiles you can download into Beersmith. I've had my eye on the Colorado Brewing system which I estimate has similar restrictions as the BB.

This brew is giving me an idea of what a 10g batch might be like for a non heavy beer.
 
At 90 minutes I had 25.4 brix with a target of 27. Let it sit another 10 and hit 27. Drained to BK and tried to squeeze. About 3.3g at 27.4 brix. Added the 4g sparge, mixed, let sit for 10 then drained. About 17 brix on 2nd running. Squeezed until about 7.4g.

What a mess.

Looks like you did pretty good efficiency wise, compared to max theoretical. The inability to completely stir the mash prior to draining probably cost you a few Brix points on initial gravity, but you recovered those on the sparge by getting more sugar than expected.

How did you determine your target Brix for the mash?

If you do this again, I'd suggest putting 1 more gal in the strike water, and cutting the sparge water by a gal. Will make mash stirring much easier, and may improve conversion a little bit.

Yeah, a bag with 25+ lb of wet spent grains is messy to deal with unless you have well honed procedures.

Brew on :mug:
 
Kettle size is irrelevant regarding basket vs bag. With a basket you will always have some volume of water outside the basket, it can be of consequence with larger beers and thicker mashes and sparges.

I always appreciate your posts and you have great advice, but there's a lot of reasons I am going to stainless basket vs. a bag. I know you're a bag vendor and I'm sure yours is made of great quality. I just feel a lot more comfortable with the stainless and I'm willing to spend the $$$. Bags vs. baskets - they both have their plusses and minuses.
 
Thank you, yes I likely do have an inherent preference and bias for bags over baskets.

I just thought it relevant with the thread that to maximize OG, the dead space outside a basket could be a factor when mash and sparge thickness are at the maximum.

Unless you are brewing very high gravity, may not be an issue at all.

Thanks
 
Thank you, yes I likely do have an inherent preference and bias for bags over baskets.

I just thought it relevant with the thread that to maximize OG, the dead space outside a basket could be a factor when mash and sparge thickness are at the maximum.

Unless you are brewing very high gravity, may not be an issue at all.

Thanks

It is off topic but as a shopper for a new system I'd like to hear your thoughts on re circulation and bags vs SS baskets. From what I've read it seems like that lost space from a basket comes in handy when trying to re circulate during the mash.
 
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