Salt additions water chemistry

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dogslapbrewery

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Hey guys,

When you're adding additions to your mash kettle to bring the ph in line sometimes I've come across the situation where I want a larger sulfate to chloride ratio. Not wanting to throw off my ph I end up adding the remaining additions in the kettle. Couple questions about this process, first is it to late and do I only get the flavor benefits adding during mash? Also should I treat the pre boil wort volume or only add what the ending boil is going to finish? I'd imagine the salts don't evaporate with the boil so this would leave the ppm even higher then I calculated? My evaporating rate is 2 gallons per hour.
 
Hey guys,

When you're adding additions to your mash kettle to bring the ph in line .

I would suggest making the disconnect between mash pH and mineral profile.

There are so many other simple ways to adjust mash pH that won't impact your chosen water profile. Chloride to sulphate ratios and residual alkalinity guides are not going to be your friend. KISS

Step1: Chose water profile and build to it based on knowing your starting water.
Step 2: With the adjusted water and your grain-bill, calculate the predicted pH and make the appropriate simple changes to get it to your target.
Step 3: During the mash measure actual mash pH and record.

Data from step 2 and 3 can be used to get ever greater pH accuracy on subsequent brews.

Here is some more detail on this

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7089538&postcount=10
 
I Mainly need to bring my ph level down so you think I should just use lactic acid or phosphoric to bring my ph in line then just hit the kettle with salts for flavoring based on my final volume? I have a ph meter and my home brew has definitely improved with being able to bring my ph level 5.3-5.5 at room temp but I still pick up this dull after taste in my pale styles around 4-8 SRM. I'm thinking if I bring my chloride and sulfate up around 150+ and my table salt around 50 that might eliminate this after taste I can't escape.
 
I taste my beer and it's good and all my friends think it's good. Then I try a commercial brew and it's so much more crisp and defined with all the flavors popping. What are they doing to get that flavor clarity? Any ideas where I should start far as dissecting my process?
 
My question isn't about predicting mash ph and adjustment. I have my ph in range, I'm curious if anyone has had similar issues and if they resolved it by adjusting the flavor minerals like choloride, sulfate, and sodium? When you adjust those are you going off the final volume or pre boil volume. Sorry if my previous post were a little confusing.
 
I have a ph meter and my home brew has definitely improved with being able to bring my ph level 5.3-5.5 at room temp but I still pick up this dull after taste in my pale styles around 4-8 SRM.

I like very pale, crisp beers closer to 5.2 room temp. Other folks think that's too low. But it's a possible solution. Of course, pale beers are also much more susceptible to oxidation and often have less to hide it, and oxidation can certainly come across as "dull" in mild cases (as opposed to paper or sherry or cardboard in more extreme cases), so it's just as likely it's not water-related as all.


I'm thinking if I bring my chloride and sulfate up around 150+ and my table salt around 50 that might eliminate this after taste I can't escape.

That's a bad idea. Having both sulfate and chloride >100ppm is asking for a minerally character. Not guaranteed and people's palates are difference, but typically if I'm pushing one >100ppm I'm keeping the other <80ppm.

Plus elevated sulfate and elevated sodium can get harsh. If anything, elevating the sulfate a bit may help you, but I wouldn't raise all three.
 
I feel like my general practice is pretty solid. I filter my water off the tap the night before letting it sit for 12 hours. My ingredients are freshly crushed that morning and i always purchase my hops in 1oz bags for freshness. My mash temp and Ph levels are pretty spot on, ph landing average around 5.3-5.4 at room temp. I normally figure out my recipe in beer smith plugging these figures into palmers spread sheet. If my PH is still off after 20-30 mins i then add .5-1 ml of lactic depending on how far off.
Im very careful with not splashing my wort when its above 70 degrees along the whole process of mash and sparge. Using 75 feet of cooper immersiopn chiller i bring it down to pitching temp in about 20-30 mins. I then hit it with 1m 30s of pure oxygen before pitching my healthy yeast starter. I dont really take a lot samples along the way during fermentation. I normally leave it in primary for 30 days before transferring to a corny keg where i purge the o2 off. After it chills i put it on 30lbs of co2 for 3-4 days then drop it down to serving pressure.
Im using a hannah phep5 meter that i clean with distilled water and store with the storage solution. Calibrating my meter every 3-4 batches depending on how long its been sitting. Here iswhat my water profile is looking like. On average after looking into last couple batches my water minerals rarely exceed 50ppm, sometimes sulfate:chloride ratio will be 4:1 at around 200ppm sulfate side for IPA. I never have both my sulfate and chloride above 100ppm. I was reading that sodium around 70-150ppm really rounds out flavor and accentuate malt sweetness. My Average sodium is around 14-20 so i thought this would be a good spot to start seeing if it brings more dimension to my malt flavors.

surface water

calcium 34.6
magnesium -9
alkanity as CaC03 - 86
sodium - 14
chloride - 22
sulfate -34
 
Can you tell us a little more about the dull aftertaste? It is hard to pinpoint what that means. Is it lack of hop flavor? Is it a mouth feel thing?

A few questions: Why do you leave it in the primary for 30 days? Primary fermentation should be 6-7 days or less and secondary/conditioning is about two weeks.
Are you fining the beer when it goes in the keg? This can clarify the beer.
Commercial breweries also filter the final beer before carbonation.
 
Its hard to describe the after taste, Its not sweet, sour, or astringent. Its just a very dull bland aftertaste at the end and not very crisp. I really notice it with lighter brews but then i started to pick up on it with all my brews. Its a very 1 dimension taste and that's why i thought it'd be a mash PH issue. It still hasn't gone away since ive been using a ph meter to hone in my levels.
Re-reading through John Palmers chapter about water/mash ph level again i notice my sodium level is very low. He says around 50-70ppm will really make the flavors come out and pop. So i recently brewed a pale ale and got my sodium around 50ppm, chloride 100ppm, sulfate 250ppm. This brew turned out perfect and that dull after taste is gone. I normally mash in a igloo cooler and batch sparge boiling on a bayou turkey fryer sp10. This last brew i did BIAB and wrapped in blankets then i brought it to a very low almost border line simmer boil being on my stove top. It sat in the primary for 18 days before i keg. I really think its the sodium level but till i do another batch i wont know for sure.
I use to fine my brews with gelatin but haven't recently because i thought it was stripping my brews of hoppy goodness. I do cold crash my beers down to around 35 for a week before i keg.
I've always kept my brew on primary 20-30 days before keg or bottling. Mainly from reading that at such a smaller volume you don't have to worry about yeast cells bursting within 3 months, Larger commercial ferm tanks being so large have a lot more weight being pushed down on the yeast cake. Also ive seen a side by side experiment one brew racked into secondary and the other staying on primary. The brew in the primary cleared up quickly and had a smoother profile. Unless your planning on conditioning for couple months i feel its a risk to contaminate your brew and your missing out on some scrubbing and cleaning the yeast can be doing.
 
Its hard to describe the after taste, Its not sweet, sour, or astringent. Its just a very dull bland aftertaste at the end and not very crisp. I really notice it with lighter brews but then i started to pick up on it with all my brews. Its a very 1 dimension taste and that's why i thought it'd be a mash PH issue. It still hasn't gone away since ive been using a ph meter to hone in my levels.
Re-reading through John Palmers chapter about water/mash ph level again i notice my sodium level is very low. He says around 50-70ppm will really make the flavors come out and pop. It sounds like you are getting a good grasp on Water Chemistry. I would suggest downloading Bru'n Water to dial in your process based off of your beer style and also reading additional information from the Water Knowledge section. Great tool and any questions about the sheet is usually answered very quickly in the Brew Science sub forum by Martin. So i recently brewed a pale ale and got my sodium around 50ppm, chloride 100ppm, sulfate 250ppm. This brew turned out perfect and that dull after taste is gone. So, this sounds like you've answered your own question. I typically adjust my Sulfate level to 200+ PPM and check that the Sulfate/Chloride ratio is greater than 2.0 for IPA's and Pale Ales.
I normally mash in a igloo cooler and batch sparge boiling on a bayou turkey fryer sp10. This last brew i did BIAB and wrapped in blankets then i brought it to a very low almost border line simmer boil being on my stove top. It sat in the primary for 18 days before i keg. I really think its the sodium level but till i do another batch i wont know for sure.
I use to fine my brews with gelatin but haven't recently because i thought it was stripping my brews of hoppy goodness. I do cold crash my beers down to around 35 for a week before i keg.
I've always kept my brew on primary 20-30 days before keg or bottling.
THIS is a solid practice for the exact reasons you mention below. I personally would not change this. No need for secondary.
Mainly from reading that at such a smaller volume you don't have to worry about yeast cells bursting within 3 months, Larger commercial ferm tanks being so large have a lot more weight being pushed down on the yeast cake. Also ive seen a side by side experiment one brew racked into secondary and the other staying on primary. The brew in the primary cleared up quickly and had a smoother profile. Unless your planning on conditioning for couple months i feel its a risk to contaminate your brew and your missing out on some scrubbing and cleaning the yeast can be doing.

See above.
 
Yeah pretty sure it's water chemistry and I'm on the right path. Unfortunately I never really paid attention during chemistry class. If I start with 8 gallons of wort and boil down to 6 is this going to increase the levels of ppm? I'd think it's just like distilled water leaving behind all the minerals while the h20 evaporates. Do they have a calculator to figure this out or is this getting a crazy for such a small tweek in the water?
 
Yeah pretty sure it's water chemistry and I'm on the right path. Unfortunately I never really paid attention during chemistry class. If I start with 8 gallons of wort and boil down to 6 is this going to increase the levels of ppm? I'd think it's just like distilled water leaving behind all the minerals while the h20 evaporates. Do they have a calculator to figure this out or is this getting a crazy for such a small tweek in the water?

Target profile figures are for initial water, not finished beer. The composition of wort or finished beer is a completely different story. But appropriate starting point should get you to appropriate ending point.
 
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