Maris otter - Cascade smash

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nyer

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I had an unfortunate accident the other day and lost a nearly full keg of tropical lager. My beer fridge is outside on a patio and the wind blew a picture off the fridge striking the tap handle. Talk about bad luck. Anyhow now I am down to just one beer on tap that I really don't like. I want to brew something that I can turn around quick and I'm thinking a maris otter cascade smash would be perfect. I have been wanting to try this for quite a while and I have several pounds of Cascade pellets and leave hops in the freezer and a bunch of us- 05 washed yeast to use up. I really don't know how to make up recipes, can someone recommend a 5.5 gallon AG batch that is low in bitterness. I really want to taste the Maris Otter and maybe try late hop additions only. I really don't care if it's in the Pale Ale category or IPA as long as it's easy to drink and low bitterness.
 
What (bad) luck!

I've made two Maris Otter Cascade SMaSH recipes, one a pale ale, the other an IPA. Both turned out great... But Maris Otter is my favorite base grain, and Cascade my favorite all-around hop... So I was bound to like it. My computer isn't with me at the moment, but my basic recipe was
Base malt to my desired OG
60 minute bittering hops
5 minute flavoring hops

For the IPA, I used more bittering and flavoring hops, and also dry hopped..

If I remember correctly, I used Nottingham yeast, possibly US-05.
 
Here's a SMaSH pale ale I did, and it turned out nicely. The Maris shined through quite well.

9 lbs. Maris Otter
1oz Cascade at 60, 1 oz. at 15, 1 oz at flameout, for about 32 IBU.
US-05

Mashed at around 150

OG 1.046
 
Just a thought, but if you really want the malt to play a key role rather than the hops, a ton of late additions probably aren't what you want.

For an easy drinking recipe that has some of that nice MO malt character and a little cascade to go along with it I would keep it to a more traditional hop schedule to get you to around 30-35 IBUs and leave it at that. A ton of late hops will get you low bitterness but a ton of flavor out of them so even though it may not end up a bitter brew you will probably have the hop flavor overpower the malt.

If you want to PM me I'm happy to help with the recipe a little more. I also have beersmith so I can pop a recipe in there and leet you see the numbers you would be getting with it!
 
Actually the more I think about it I do want it to be more of a pale ale, I am brewing an IPA after that so I don't need two. And I do want to taste the Maris Otter I love the flavor of it so late top additions are probably out.
 
If you go with

Grain Bill:
10 lbs. MO

Hop Schedule:
1 oz. Cascade - 60 min
.5 oz. Cascade - 30 min
1 oz. Cascade - 15 min
.5 oz. Cascade - 5 min

That should put you right around a 1.053 OG with 35 IBUs.
 
BigMack said:
If you go with

Grain Bill:
10 lbs. MO

Hop Schedule:
1 oz. Cascade - 60 min
.5 oz. Cascade - 30 min
1 oz. Cascade - 15 min
.5 oz. Cascade - 5 min

That should put you right around a 1.053 OG with 35 IBUs.
Click to expand...

I like it. I will give it a try, thank you.
 
BigMack said:
If you go with

Grain Bill:
10 lbs. MO

Hop Schedule:
1 oz. Cascade - 60 min
.5 oz. Cascade - 30 min
1 oz. Cascade - 15 min
.5 oz. Cascade - 5 min

That should put you right around a 1.053 OG with 35 IBUs.
Click to expand...

Just curious, but why the 30 minute hop addition? Besides big IPAs, where I will continuously hop, I haven't really found any use for 20-40 minute hop additions. Why not choose either bittering or flavoring? This is particularly true for a single hop beer.
 
max384 said:
Just curious, but why the 30 minute hop addition? Besides big IPAs, where I will continuously hop, I haven't really found any use for 20-40 minute hop additions. Why not choose either bittering or flavoring?
Click to expand...

I suppose my main answer to that would be personal preference. When I have made pale ales/amber ales before where I want hop presence but also want the malt to be the bigger presence thats the schedule I generally use. He also said he didn't want much for late additions since he wants the MO to shine through.

But again, to each their own. I wish I had the time to experiment more with different hop schedules/techniques, but I've made some damn good brews with a simple hop schedule like that one.

What is your normal schedule when you're going for a balanced pale ale?
 
BigMack said:
I suppose my main answer to that would be personal preference. When I have made pale ales/amber ales before where I want hop presence but also want the malt to be the bigger presence thats the schedule I generally use. He also said he didn't want much for late additions since he wants the MO to shine through.

But again, to each their own. I wish I had the time to experiment more with different hop schedules/techniques, but I've made some damn good brews with a simple hop schedule like that one.

What is your normal schedule when you're going for a balanced pale ale?
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, I wasn't criticizing your recipe, just curious as to your reasoning behind it, as I post here to impart knowledge at times, but mostly to learn.

If I'm going for a balanced (lower IBU) pale ale, I'll really only do two additions, a60 minute, and a 1-15 minute flavoring addition, usually being 5 minutes. I usually do less bittering hops, and then try to squeeze out more IBUs out of more flavoring hops to get the end IBUs of the recipe.

However, in the sake of transparency, I rarely make balanced pale ales or IPAs, as I enjoy a hop-heavy unbalanced brew most of the time.
 
My hops are 6.4% and I come out with 47.2 ibus. Should i reduce them equally across the board to get to 35 ibus?
 
max384 said:
Just curious, but why the 30 minute hop addition? Besides big IPAs, where I will continuously hop, I haven't really found any use for 20-40 minute hop additions. Why not choose either bittering or flavoring? This is particularly true for a single hop beer.
Click to expand...

I agree........30 minute additions are pretty useless in a hop schedule like this IMHO......... They don't contribute much for either bittering or flavor and aroma. I tend toward a bittering addition, and a single flavor / aroma addition late in the boil and a whirlpool.

H.W.
 
nyer said:
My hops are 6.4% and I come out with 47.2 ibus. Should i reduce them equally across the board to get to 35 ibus?
Click to expand...

You could certainly do it that way. But you could also drop the 30 minute addition and that would put you back at 35 IBUs. It seems to be the general consensus that most people would recommend that anyways.

But really, I think any SMaSH with MO and Cascade you will end up with a great beer!
 
max384 said:
Just to be clear, I wasn't criticizing your recipe, just curious as to your reasoning behind it, as I post here to impart knowledge at times, but mostly to learn.

If I'm going for a balanced (lower IBU) pale ale, I'll really only do two additions, a60 minute, and a 1-15 minute flavoring addition, usually being 5 minutes. I usually do less bittering hops, and then try to squeeze out more IBUs out of more flavoring hops to get the end IBUs of the recipe.

However, in the sake of transparency, I rarely make balanced pale ales or IPAs, as I enjoy a hop-heavy unbalanced brew most of the time.
Click to expand...

I didn't think you were criticizing at all! I'm always open to new methodology and reasoning. And I totally agree with you for hop forward beers. I love just dumping in loads of delicious hop goodness at the end of the boil when that's what I'm going for.

But, like the OP said, he wants the beer to be balanced or even a little unbalanced towards the malt. So with that in mind I don't think getting a lot of your IBUs from late additions is going to get that balance.
 
Awesome. I've been thinking about a similar beer to brew next. Can't decide if I want a PA or IPA, but leaning IPA or maybe in between. Here is what I'm thinking:

OG - 1.060 (80% efficiency)
IBU - 50
ABV - 6.5%

11 LB - MO

1.5 oz Cascade - 60 min (7% AA)
.75 oz Cascade - 15 min
.75 oz Cascade - 5 min

WLP 007 - have some harvested yeast on hand

I'm considering subbing .75 lb of MO for some 45L and dry hopping with a couple oz of Cascade. Might just go with the SMASH and see what happens. Never done one before and I've never brewed with MO.
 
oujens said:
I'm considering subbing .75 lb of MO for some 45L and dry hopping with a couple oz of Cascade. Might just go with the SMASH and see what happens. Never done one before and I've never brewed with MO.
Click to expand...

I would go with the SMaSH. Especially if you've never brewed with MO before. I think it will be a great way to see that malt shine, and will definitely turn out to be a great brew!
 
oujens said:
Awesome. I've been thinking about a similar beer to brew next. Can't decide if I want a PA or IPA, but leaning IPA or maybe in between. Here is what I'm thinking:

OG - 1.060 (80% efficiency)
IBU - 50
ABV - 6.5%

11 LB - MO

1.5 oz Cascade - 60 min (7% AA)
.75 oz Cascade - 15 min
.75 oz Cascade - 5 min

WLP 007 - have some harvested yeast on hand

I'm considering subbing .75 lb of MO for some 45L and dry hopping with a couple oz of Cascade. Might just go with the SMASH and see what happens. Never done one before and I've never brewed with MO.
Click to expand...

Consider a whirlpool addition............. I personally like that better than dry hopping.

H.W.
 
Here is the recipe I used last month as my first BIAB. I found the recipe on HBT somewhere but I may have changed some of the temps. If I did it again, I might be tempted to dry hop or move additions around. Malt really stands out. I get a bit of froot loops flavor in the finish.

Kettle size: 7.5 gallon
Batch: 5.25 gallon
OG - 1.061
FG - 1.016

12 lb Maris Otter
1 oz Cascade - 60 min
1 oz Cascade - 30 min
Whirlfloc - 15 min
1 oz Cascade - 5 min
S05 dry yeast

75 min mash at 152F in 16qt -- 1.33 qt/lb
Batch sparge to bring pre-boil volume to about 6.5 gallon. Pre-boil SG 1.053
After the 60 min boil, my SG was 1.068 and I ended up topping off the fermenter to 5.25 gallon bringing my OG to 1.061.
 
Last edited:
Thought I would bump this for some feedback. I just received my ingredients and have the following recipe:

OG 1.061
FG 1.014
IBU 50 (ish)

11 lb MO

60 min - 1.5 oz Cascade (7% AA)
15 min - 1 oz Cascade
Hop Stand - 1.5 oz Cascade @ 170 for 30 minutes

This is my first time with a hop stand. My goal here is to have something in between an IPA and APA (possibly a balanced IPA?). Before I proceed, I was curious if anybody had a feel for how this beer will turn out. Will I have nice hop flavor and aroma, and will the MO still shine? Want to make sure the hops are not overpowering so I can still get a taste of the MO. I'm assuming this hop schedule is considered light since others use much more hops than I have here. I appreciate the feedback!
 
oujens said:
Thought I would bump this for some feedback. I just received my ingredients and have the following recipe:

OG 1.061
FG 1.014
IBU 50 (ish)

11 lb MO

60 min - 1.5 oz Cascade (7% AA)
15 min - 1 oz Cascade
Hop Stand - 1.5 oz Cascade @ 170 for 30 minutes

This is my first time with a hop stand. My goal here is to have something in between an IPA and APA (possibly a balanced IPA?). Before I proceed, I was curious if anybody had a feel for how this beer will turn out. Will I have nice hop flavor and aroma, and will the MO still shine? Want to make sure the hops are not overpowering so I can still get a taste of the MO. I'm assuming this hop schedule is considered light since others use much more hops than I have here. I appreciate the feedback!
Click to expand...

Putting those numbers into beersmith gives IBUs of about 61. But with a lot of those being late additions it would probably drink more like a beer with about 50 or so IBUs. This is a bit high for a lighter APA, but definitely in line with your desire to find that middle ground between a pale and an IPA. I think this should be light enough to let the MO come through, but if you really want the MO to shine a little more I may just cut back the hop stand to an oz. But really, your recipe will give you a great beer. I've made an Amarillo/MO SMaSH with a similar hop schedule but with only an ounce at each of those additions and it came out very good.
 
BigMack said:
Putting those numbers into beersmith gives IBUs of about 61. But with a lot of those being late additions it would probably drink more like a beer with about 50 or so IBUs. This is a bit high for a lighter APA, but definitely in line with your desire to find that middle ground between a pale and an IPA. I think this should be light enough to let the MO come through, but if you really want the MO to shine a little more I may just cut back the hop stand to an oz. But really, your recipe will give you a great beer. I've made an Amarillo/MO SMaSH with a similar hop schedule but with only an ounce at each of those additions and it came out very good.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback. I was thinking my hop stand shouldn't add many IBUs, but maybe I need to revisit this topic. 60 IBUs might not be a bad thing since I have enjoyed an IPA with a similar profile, including malt and hops. I think I'll give it a whirl and see what happens. All this SMaSH talk around here has me drooling.
 
oujens said:
Thanks for the feedback. I was thinking my hop stand shouldn't add many IBUs, but maybe I need to revisit this topic. 60 IBUs might not be a bad thing since I have enjoyed an IPA with a similar profile, including malt and hops. I think I'll give it a whirl and see what happens. All this SMaSH talk around here has me drooling.
Click to expand...

I just put it back in and realized I was giving you the numbers for a 5.5 gallon batch. For 5 gallons it actually comes out at 69.5. 16 of those are from the hopstand which should be a much smoother bitterness than you would get from an earlier addition.

If you put all of the additions at 1 oz it puts you at 50.8 IBUs. If you drop the 60 minute to 1 oz and leave the rest as is it would put you at 56 IBUs. If you dropped the last addition to 1 oz and leave the rest as is it'll put you at 65 IBUs. Just to give you some options.

But again, any SMaSH with a tasty malt and delicious hops will end up tasting pretty damn good.
 
BigMack said:
I just put it back in and realized I was giving you the numbers for a 5.5 gallon batch. For 5 gallons it actually comes out at 69.5. 16 of those are from the hopstand which should be a much smoother bitterness than you would get from an earlier addition.

If you put all of the additions at 1 oz it puts you at 50.8 IBUs. If you drop the 60 minute to 1 oz and leave the rest as is it would put you at 56 IBUs. If you dropped the last addition to 1 oz and leave the rest as is it'll put you at 65 IBUs. Just to give you some options.

But again, any SMaSH with a tasty malt and delicious hops will end up tasting pretty damn good.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I am making a 5.5 gallon batch measured with 80% efficiency. I wasn't calculating IBUs from the hopstand thinking that in the 160 - 170F range it won't contribute much bitterness, but maybe that's because it is smoother. Perhaps I read info on hopstand wrong. I think my calculation on Beersmith came to 47 IBU and I am assuming a few more should be added for the hopstand. Would a hopstand at 170F add the IBUs you calculated, or is Beersmith assuming this is added at flameout with no chill?
 
oujens said:
Thanks! I am making a 5.5 gallon batch measured with 80% efficiency. I wasn't calculating IBUs from the hopstand thinking that in the 160 - 170F range it won't contribute much bitterness, but maybe that's because it is smoother. Perhaps I read info on hopstand wrong. I think my calculation on Beersmith came to 47 IBU and I am assuming a few more should be added for the hopstand. Would a hopstand at 170F add the IBUs you calculated, or is Beersmith assuming this is added at flameout with no chill?
Click to expand...

Sorry for blowing you up with BeerSmith numbers since you have it haha. From everything I've read, and from personal experience, I think really getting an exact number from hopstand additions is tough. I mainly use beersmith to at least get me in range. I've never had something seem way off of what beersmith is telling me. I just did a repeat of an IPA that I had done before with the addition of one ounce of Jade for a 20 minute hopstand. While I didn't have the previous version next to me for comparison it did seem a slight bit more bitter, but the hop aroma/flavor was way stronger. And before I ramble on too much longer I'll get to my point. I would set your IBU's at around where you want them without a hopstand and then not worry about the IBU's too much from a hopstand that is only an ounce or an 1.5 ounces. I'm sure someone on here will have a very different opinion from mine, but with a small hopstand like that I have seen a very small difference in bittering with a much bigger difference in flavor/aroma.

And most important of all. RDWHAHB :mug: Cheers!
 
BigMack said:
Sorry for blowing you up with BeerSmith numbers since you have it haha. From everything I've read, and from personal experience, I think really getting an exact number from hopstand additions is tough. I mainly use beersmith to at least get me in range. I've never had something seem way off of what beersmith is telling me. I just did a repeat of an IPA that I had done before with the addition of one ounce of Jade for a 20 minute hopstand. While I didn't have the previous version next to me for comparison it did seem a slight bit more bitter, but the hop aroma/flavor was way stronger. And before I ramble on too much longer I'll get to my point. I would set your IBU's at around where you want them without a hopstand and then not worry about the IBU's too much from a hopstand that is only an ounce or an 1.5 ounces. I'm sure someone on here will have a very different opinion from mine, but with a small hopstand like that I have seen a very small difference in bittering with a much bigger difference in flavor/aroma.

And most important of all. RDWHAHB :mug: Cheers!
Click to expand...

No problem! I really appreciate the feedback. Been doing a lot of simple things lately and thought I might add some spice with a hopstand. After a few malt-forward beers, I'm ready for some hops. Just trying to get a vote of confidence before the first hop drops. I'll report back in a few weeks with the results. :mug:
 
BigMack said:
I would set your IBU's at around where you want them without a hopstand and then not worry about the IBU's too much from a hopstand that is only an ounce or an 1.5 ounces.
Click to expand...

BigMack, I apologize to hit up for advice again. I was thinking my Cascades were 7% AA, and I realized that purchasing from a different store I got 5.5% AA. I understand how to adjust hop additions, but would it be wise to not increase the hopstand amount beyond 1.5 oz? Luckily I purchased an extra oz in case this happened. Didn't know if the hopstand is affected by the AA% or not.

Thanks
 
brew703 said:
If a more tropical MO SMaSH was wanted, could Simcoe be used? Would Simcoe pair well with MO?
Click to expand...

Man, youre overthinking SMASH here. About any hop will pair. Simcoe and MO would be delicious, but to me that's not a tropical fruit hop. Go Citra or something like that.
 
You're right- just wanted something outside of grapefruit. Don't get me wrong I like Citra and have 3 gallons of Oddsides in the fermenter but wanted to try something else.
 
You seriously can't go wrong with MO and most hops. I have recently swapped MO for Golden Promise myself, just for kicks.

Sorry about your bad luck though. I'd be bummed as well.
 
brew703 said:
Thanks. I do have some Galaxy that I can use. Probably not enough but it will be at least December before I can brew this so that will give me time to go to the LHBS.
Click to expand...

Let me know how it turns out! I want to try them as well, since I heard they give off a Fruity Pebbles type aroma.

Something else I want to try is using Amarillo in the boil & flameout, and Mandarina Bavaria hops for the dry-hop, to draw out an orange essence.
 
oujens said:
BigMack, I apologize to hit up for advice again. I was thinking my Cascades were 7% AA, and I realized that purchasing from a different store I got 5.5% AA. I understand how to adjust hop additions, but would it be wise to not increase the hopstand amount beyond 1.5 oz? Luckily I purchased an extra oz in case this happened. Didn't know if the hopstand is affected by the AA% or not.

Thanks
Click to expand...

You can definitely increase the hopstand over 1.5 oz, if you want to get a nice smooth hop flavor from it. Anytime I have had a similar issue I've been happy with my results by bumping up the additions until they match what the IBUs would have been when I planned the recipe with a different number for the AA%. That applies to my hopstands as well. I just personally don't like to over do it on the hopstands, but you should still be in a good place with another half ounce or whatever it takes to match the same IBUs from before. Thats just my $0.02. Hope that helps!
 
I did a SMaSH beer using MO and Lemondrop hops with 001 yeast. 5.1ABV. Mashed at 151. With around 50 IBU it was slightly hoppier than a pale ale but less hoppy than most IPA. It was not a hop monster by any means and let us see what the lemondrop hop was all about. That keg didn't last long and was very good. I will be rebrewing this soon.

I used 10 lb of MO with hops at: 1 oz @60, 1 oz @15, 1 oz @ 10, 1.5 oz @ 5 and 1.5 oz @ whirlpool. Dryhopped with 2 oz for 4 days along with the zest of 2 lemons.
 

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