Are all Chocolate malts equal?

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roncruiser

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I'm preparing to brew a big RIS. Are there chocolate malts much tastier than others? Meaning a significant difference in taste given they are mashed the same way using the same recipe but different batches. Is there one brand you can recommend, or does it really make a difference as long as it's relatively fresh.

Thanks...
 
what types of "chocolate malts" are you talking about. Pale chocolate vs regular chocolate is a significant difference in both color and flavor. Even in malts deemed "chocolate malt" i have seen variations from about 300 lovibond to over 400 lovibond.

But mostly, I would just make sure its good quality and fresh. You can adjust your recipe accordingly based on how roasted it is
 
what types of "chocolate malts" are you talking about. Pale chocolate vs regular chocolate is a significant difference in both color and flavor. Even in malts deemed "chocolate malt" i have seen variations from about 300 lovibond to over 400 lovibond.

But mostly, I would just make sure its good quality and fresh. You can adjust your recipe accordingly based on how roasted it is

I'm unsure. As some recipes are not clear what kind of chocolate malts to use. I'm glad I asked. I didn't know pale chocolate existed versus regular chocolate.

For example, the RIS I spoke of brewing next is this one:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=2824529&postcount=1
It doesn't specifically say which type of chocolate malt to use.

Which would you use for that recipe?

What I did was go on Northern Brewers website and searched for Chocolate malt and took the results at face value. I don't know any better until now.

In general I guess I was asking for the tastiest chocolate malt. A chocolate malt that stands out from the rest, but I'm not sure that exists.
 
personally, I like the flavor of pale chocolate the best. Its not nearly as bitter and tastes more "chocolatey" to me. That recipe already has 1.5lbs of roasted barley so that will take care of all the color and roast you need. I would go with pale chocolate

the hop bill looks a bit off to me. With 4oz of challenger hops in 5gal will make this thing more bitter than any IPA. From using my recipe tool, the listed IBUs is over 150, about triple what the recipe lists. I think that may be a type so watch out. I would definitely cut the 60min addition down to more reasonable levels, like 1oz.
 
personally, I like the flavor of pale chocolate the best. Its not nearly as bitter and tastes more "chocolatey" to me. That recipe already has 1.5lbs of roasted barley so that will take care of all the color and roast you need. I would go with pale chocolate

the hop bill looks a bit off to me. With 4oz of challenger hops in 5gal will make this thing more bitter than any IPA. From using my recipe tool, the listed IBUs is over 150, about triple what the recipe lists. I think that may be a type so watch out. I would definitely cut the 60min addition down to more reasonable levels, like 1oz.


I would be careful by looking at IBU in a vacuum. RIS's have high OG and FG that needs to be balanced by bitterness before that bitterness shows to the taster. RIS's are also often aged for longer periods of time which bring down bitterness.
 
I have never measured IBUs for a single recipe of mine. I couldnt care less. I just know that 4oz of a moderately strong bittering hop in 5gal is absurd. If you click on the thread he linked on just about every page, people are discussing exactly what I was talking about
 
Pale chocolate may not be appropriate in a RIS. At least not as a main component to the roasty/chocolate character. Depending on the lovibond, I have a 200-ish pale chocolate, it can give a sweet milk chocolate character. It's definitely more appropriate in an oatmeal/sweet stouts and assorted porter styles (brown ales as well in small amounts).

If you were going to use pale chocolate I would use it in tandem with other roastier chocolate malts and additional roast malts.
 
Malt can vary from maltster to maltster. For example Pale Ale Malt from Briess is very different than Pale Ale from Rahr. Further the name of a malt (i.e. Victory can be a copyrighted or patented name "Victory" is the registered trademark name of biscuit type malt made by Briess).

Chocolate malt is a malted barley that was roasted at a high temperature rather than being kilned after the malting process completes. The temperature and time and even the type of roaster will change the flavor and properties of the malt. This is why there is a wide range of color and flavor from various chocolate malts. Briess ball roasted chocolate malt has a very different flavor than say Crisp's drum roasted chocolate malt. Also the grain source will have an impact on the final flavor. Grains from Europe are very different than grains from the US Midwest states.

Experiment with various maltsters and test and taste. Think about what your looking for in the final beer and then select malts accordingly. When I make an English style oatmeal stout I use Crisp Chocolate but making an American Oatmeal Stout I will use Briess. These are very different tasting beers.

This is one of the most fascinating things about brewing, learning that where your ingredients come from can alter the flavor of a beer. I find this ever present variety and opportunity to experiment extremely fun. Keep good notes and records so you can recall and compare.

Enjoy!
 
I have never measured IBUs for a single recipe of mine. I couldnt care less. I just know that 4oz of a moderately strong bittering hop in 5gal is absurd. If you click on the thread he linked on just about every page, people are discussing exactly what I was talking about

Went four pages and got bored, never found anyone talking down the hops amount.
 
I have never measured IBUs for a single recipe of mine. I couldnt care less. I just know that 4oz of a moderately strong bittering hop in 5gal is absurd. If you click on the thread he linked on just about every page, people are discussing exactly what I was talking about


I respectfully disagree. Check out r2eg's "double-w" imperial stout. I'd link but I'm on mobile.

It's over 5oz, with 2oz of 15% AA at 60min.

I've made this recipe twice and its a very good beer.
 
Pale chocolate may not be appropriate in a RIS. At least not as a main component to the roasty/chocolate character. Depending on the lovibond, I have a 200-ish pale chocolate, it can give a sweet milk chocolate character. It's definitely more appropriate in an oatmeal/sweet stouts and assorted porter styles (brown ales as well in small amounts).

If you were going to use pale chocolate I would use it in tandem with other roastier chocolate malts and additional roast malts.

personally, I like the flavor of pale chocolate the best. Its not nearly as bitter and tastes more "chocolatey" to me. That recipe already has 1.5lbs of roasted barley so that will take care of all the color and roast you need. I would go with pale chocolate

the hop bill looks a bit off to me. With 4oz of challenger hops in 5gal will make this thing more bitter than any IPA. From using my recipe tool, the listed IBUs is over 150, about triple what the recipe lists. I think that may be a type so watch out. I would definitely cut the 60min addition down to more reasonable levels, like 1oz.

Maybe you guys can help me this way instead. I'd like to enhance the chocolate and tone down the roastiness just slightly.

What would you adjust? Is it simply adding pale chocolate to the recipe, or is it adding more chocolate roast and reducing the roasted barley?
 
Midnight wheat malt is an option, dehusked carafa, debittered black malt are options. These should all still give you roast without ashiness if used in decent amounts.

Midnight wheat malt in my experience so far doesnt give that ash tray roastiness, more like dark roast coffee with dark dark chocolate, adds more body than a normal roast malt. You could use a high quantity of this, around 16oz for a 5 gallon batch and combo it with some pale chocolate/chocolate malt and a touch of roasted barley. Should still give the classic RIS roast with a bit more body and chocolate/coffee character. I have 1.5lbs of midnight wheat waiting for a big RIS in my brewing future.

If I was trying for a big monster RIS that would sit for a year or two my roast component would probably be something like below, if I was going for something that didn't come off sweet, but also didn't taste like an ash tray. This would definitely be less roasty than most interpretations of the style though.

16-24oz of Midnight Wheat
8oz English Chocolate Malt (425L range)
4-6oz Pale Chocolate
4-6oz Roasted Barley/Black Patent

This should make up the majority if not all of your specialty malts for a RIS. For my personal tastes in dark roasty beers I like the caramel/dark fruit sweetness in the balance. I enjoy special B and English Medium Crystal combo in general so I would probably toss in 4oz of each with Pale Ale malt as my base malt, any pale malt as the base will be good.
 
Midnight wheat malt is an option, dehusked carafa, debittered black malt are options. These should all still give you roast without ashiness if used in decent amounts.

Midnight wheat malt in my experience so far doesnt give that ash tray roastiness, more like dark roast coffee with dark dark chocolate, adds more body than a normal roast malt. You could use a high quantity of this, around 16oz for a 5 gallon batch and combo it with some pale chocolate/chocolate malt and a touch of roasted barley. Should still give the classic RIS roast with a bit more body and chocolate/coffee character. I have 1.5lbs of midnight wheat waiting for a big RIS in my brewing future.

If I was trying for a big monster RIS that would sit for a year or two my roast component would probably be something like below, if I was going for something that didn't come off sweet, but also didn't taste like an ash tray. This would definitely be less roasty than most interpretations of the style though.

16-24oz of Midnight Wheat
8oz English Chocolate Malt (425L range)
4-6oz Pale Chocolate
4-6oz Roasted Barley/Black Patent

This should make up the majority if not all of your specialty malts for a RIS. For my personal tastes in dark roasty beers I like the caramel/dark fruit sweetness in the balance. I enjoy special B and English Medium Crystal combo in general so I would probably toss in 4oz of each with Pale Ale malt as my base malt, any pale malt as the base will be good.

This is interesting.

I'm contemplating brewing with your version of specialty malts to compare the two recipe's. These will be my first RIS batches. So, I have a few more inquiries... Where does the "caramel/dark fruit" manifest from?
What does the Special B and English Medium Crystal add to the taste or flavor? Will it add something to the sweetness? I do like the sweeter leaning RIS but not cloying. There's a fine balance with sweetness as it pertains to RIS. I'd like to cut that learning curve down somewhat.

Thanks again....
 
I agree with above. If your goal is to minimize roastiness while still having an overall "stout" body then you should be looking into de-bittered black malts. Perla nega, carafa I II and III, blackprinz, and midnight wheat are all viable options

Dark crystal malts (esp english) and special B can both give a toffee raisin like character. It can be very prominent if you go too far above 1/2lb though for a 5gal batch.
 
I agree with above. If your goal is to minimize roastiness while still having an overall "stout" body then you should be looking into de-bittered black malts. Perla nega, carafa I II and III, blackprinz, and midnight wheat are all viable options

Dark crystal malts (esp english) and special B can both give a toffee raisin like character. It can be very prominent if you go too far above 1/2lb though for a 5gal batch.

What he said, toffe/raisin are common characters you get from those two crystal malts.

If your fermentation is healthy and vigorous you shouldn't have a problem with sweetness in a RIS at 8oz of Crystal malt. I bring it up only due to my personal tastes *and* toffee/raisin/prune/dark fruit is listed in the style guidelines for RIS as an optional flavor (though should only serve to support the coffee/chocolate).
 
I agree with above. If your goal is to minimize roastiness while still having an overall "stout" body then you should be looking into de-bittered black malts. Perla nega, carafa I II and III, blackprinz, and midnight wheat are all viable options

Dark crystal malts (esp english) and special B can both give a toffee raisin like character. It can be very prominent if you go too far above 1/2lb though for a 5gal batch.

Not minimize roastiness but dial it back a notch or two. I still want the roast flavor there. Just not overly roasty. I wasn't sure which grain or combination of grains to dial back to control roast flavor while gaining more chocolate tones.
 
What he said, toffe/raisin are common characters you get from those two crystal malts.

If your fermentation is healthy and vigorous you shouldn't have a problem with sweetness in a RIS at 8oz of Crystal malt. I bring it up only due to my personal tastes *and* toffee/raisin/prune/dark fruit is listed in the style guidelines for RIS as an optional flavor (though should only serve to support the coffee/chocolate).

So, with my new found appreciation for specialty malts which °L Crystal Malt are you recommending, or does it matter because it's such a small amount?
I'm assuming light crystal malt for just adding sweetness, or darker for adding both sweetness and some flavor tone that I'm unsure of. And of course head-retention.
 
So, with my new found appreciation for specialty malts which °L Crystal Malt are you recommending, or does it matter because it's such a small amount?
I'm assuming light crystal malt for just adding sweetness, or darker for adding both sweetness and some flavor tone that I'm unsure of. And of course head-retention.

I'm partial to special B which is around 115L, American 120L is good as well although somewhat more one dimensional. These give more of the dark caramel sweetness, special B if you chew a few grains it reminds me of coffee and raisins, 120L Crystal gives a more toffee and caramel flavor than dark fruits.

Lighter Crystal malts are less assertive in terms of flavor but do contribute the "sweetness" and body (I think most cloying beers of old were less to do with Crystal malt overuse and more to do with under attenuation). UK Crystal malts are generally more fruity than American counter parts.

In small amounts they're a nice little addition. In this case I don't think it's as important due to all the assertive coffee/chocolate/roast/hops/alcohol that RIS is known for. For simplicity 4-8oz of a Crystal malt betweent 40-120L shouldn't take over the beer. I would recommend a UK Medium Crystal (it's listed as between 40-60L) since it's fairly simple and isn't overly assertive, 6oz would be a nice compromise, in the end you may not be able to detect its contribution, but like salt, you might notice if it's not there.
 
In a BeerSmith podcast (can't recall wich), either Randy Mosher or Denny Conn said something like: "If you want that taste of Chocolate, don't use Chocolate malt, use Caraffa"
 
In a BeerSmith podcast (can't recall wich), either Randy Mosher or Denny Conn said something like: "If you want that taste of Chocolate, don't use Chocolate malt, use Caraffa"

That's pretty true in general. Pale chocolate malt in large quantities, in conjunction with crystal malts, will lend a sweet milk chocolate quality. Though at the same time it will contribute light roast coffee.

I haven't had a chance to really try carafa yet so I cannot comment on it. Though midnight wheat malt will give bittersweet chocolate character which is pretty stellar combined with pale chocolate and other chocolate malts.
 
In a BeerSmith podcast (can't recall wich), either Randy Mosher or Denny Conn said something like: "If you want that taste of Chocolate, don't use Chocolate malt, use Caraffa"

That's pretty true in general. Pale chocolate malt in large quantities, in conjunction with crystal malts, will lend a sweet milk chocolate quality. Though at the same time it will contribute light roast coffee.

I haven't had a chance to really try carafa yet so I cannot comment on it. Though midnight wheat malt will give bittersweet chocolate character which is pretty stellar combined with pale chocolate and other chocolate malts.

For big stouts like a Russian Imperial, is 15% specialty malts typical? How is the percentage of specialty grains determined, and how does that percentage get broken down into individual components? Is there a typical format to follow in general?

For example here you mention a specialty grain breakdown below with Special B and English Medium Crystal tossed in:

16-24oz of Midnight Wheat
8oz English Chocolate Malt (425L range)
4-6oz Pale Chocolate
4-6oz Roasted Barley/Black Patent

This should make up the majority if not all of your specialty malts for a RIS. For my personal tastes in dark roasty beers I like the caramel/dark fruit sweetness in the balance. I enjoy special B and English Medium Crystal combo in general so I would probably toss in 4oz of each with Pale Ale malt as my base malt, any pale malt as the base will be good.

Is it more by gaining experience by brewing and researching other recipes? In other words you have feel for it now, and intuitively can concoct something that you know will be good, or is there some general formula combined with experience?
 
I respectfully disagree. Check out r2eg's "double-w" imperial stout. I'd link but I'm on mobile.

It's over 5oz, with 2oz of 15% AA at 60min.

I've made this recipe twice and its a very good beer.

Beer is all about balance. Some lean toward hoppy of course, and some lean towards malty, but a great way to judge is by using the IBU/SG ratio. In a beer with an OG of over 1.100, this is really important. An underbittered beer is a cloyingly sweet beer.

4 ounces of lower AAU hops at bittering (or 2 ounces of high AAU hops like in this case) sounds fine to me.
 
Midnight wheat malt is an option, dehusked carafa, debittered black malt are options. These should all still give you roast without ashiness if used in decent amounts.

Midnight wheat malt in my experience so far doesnt give that ash tray roastiness, more like dark roast coffee with dark dark chocolate, adds more body than a normal roast malt. You could use a high quantity of this, around 16oz for a 5 gallon batch and combo it with some pale chocolate/chocolate malt and a touch of roasted barley. Should still give the classic RIS roast with a bit more body and chocolate/coffee character. I have 1.5lbs of midnight wheat waiting for a big RIS in my brewing future.

If I was trying for a big monster RIS that would sit for a year or two my roast component would probably be something like below, if I was going for something that didn't come off sweet, but also didn't taste like an ash tray. This would definitely be less roasty than most interpretations of the style though.

16-24oz of Midnight Wheat
8oz English Chocolate Malt (425L range)
4-6oz Pale Chocolate
4-6oz Roasted Barley/Black Patent

This should make up the majority if not all of your specialty malts for a RIS. For my personal tastes in dark roasty beers I like the caramel/dark fruit sweetness in the balance. I enjoy special B and English Medium Crystal combo in general so I would probably toss in 4oz of each with Pale Ale malt as my base malt, any pale malt as the base will be good.

That's a great way to think of it!

The hard thing for new(er) brewers is that there are differences between malts and maltsters. We've often seen something used as a sub- but none of the subs are exactly the same.

UK crystal/caramel malts are different than US crystal malts, or even German cara- malts. Simpson's chocolate malt is far different than Briess' pale chocolate malt, and they are both different than Thomas Fawcett's chocolate malt.

Special B really isn't like any other crystal malt, although sometimes crystal 120L is subbed. So it's really hard to give an explanation of different malts and what they bring to a grainbill.

I happen to like "coffee malt" or "pale chocolate malt" for a coffee roast type of flavor without the ashy/acrid type of roasted barley or black patent malt. They are different.

However, try not to worry about it too much. Since the balance of the beer is important, as is an harmonious blend of flavors, it's more about the composite than all of the other ingredients. Try not to stress over the color of a chocolate malt too much is what I'm saying, or any individual ingredient. Pick the best one for the job, sure, but remember that it's the blend that works together- the toffee that comes from Special B, say, along with the raisin flavors. That will blend with the roasty flavors (even acrid flavors) of black patent or roasted barley, and with some lighter caramel/crystal malt, there will be some residual sweetness. Once that all melds, it becomes a whole 'nother flavor onto itself, if that makes sense.

For the example above, I would love that! Others would call that amount of roast "restrained". I like to make a recipe, and then take notes as I drink it for tweaks for next time- more malt flavor? Add more/some Munich malt. More roast? And more roasted barley next time. And so on. In cases like this "less is more" is often a good bet.
 
For big stouts like a Russian Imperial, is 15% specialty malts typical? How is the percentage of specialty grains determined, and how does that percentage get broken down into individual components? Is there a typical format to follow in general?

For example here you mention a specialty grain breakdown below with Special B and English Medium Crystal tossed in:



Is it more by gaining experience by brewing and researching other recipes? In other words you have feel for it now, and intuitively can concoct something that you know will be good, or is there some general formula combined with experience?

Edit: Before I forget to say this. Before I truly start digging into making a recipe, I read, re-read, read it again, and then read it about 10 more times the BJCP style guidelines for the style I want to brew. Not that you have to follow BJCP guidelines to brew good beer (not at all in fact), but if you have a target to shoot for, you can hit much closer to the mark. When I started reading this thread first thing I did was go to my BJCP style guidelines app on my phone and paid special attention to the aroma and flavor descriptors.

To some, 15% would be a tad high even for a RIS. There is the risk of complexity turning into muddled flavor. Think of it like a dish of food you are cooking for breakfast/lunch/dinner. If I am making some overeasy eggs and toast with bacon I'll throw a pinch of kosher salt and fresh black pepper on the eggs, its also good with a dash of hot sauce, and then a dash of toasted ground cumin, and then a spoon full of salsa... so on and so forth pretty soon its not eggs and toast and bacon, all you taste is the salsa and the hot sauce and theres some egg chunks mixed in. IPAs are the eggs and toast, RIS is the huevos rancheros, it can handle a bit more specialty malts and still taste like a big roasty RIS(you won't be able to taste all the invidual contributions from the specialty malts, you never really taste bay leaf in soup, but all soups are better with bay leaf).

Before I get into your second set of questions. Nothing can replace experience, as I'll talk about below. I wish I had tried other "tried and true" recipes when I started brewing. Granted I got to learn a LOT about different specialty malts and what I like and don't like and what they do in different amounts.

As for your second set of questions. Its a little bit of everything. I use my culinary experience to make sense of a beer recipe. It took me writing and brewing probably first 10 batches were bad-onlysomewhatbad, then the next 10 recipes were mediocre-somewhatok. My past 5 batches and a beer I made back in March were really awesome, one of them won a county fair and is being brewed at a local brewery as a pilot batch. I went the dumb way and just started writing recipes and then brewing them to find out what does what.

Some beers, for example a witbier, theres really not much you can do to improve it. You can play with it, but the general formula for a good witbier is largely the same. Part of it is the region the style comes from you are trying to emulate. Belgian beers for example are a two to three note "song" so to speak, pilsner malt, sugar, and *maybe* a small amount of wheat. Stouts usually are 4-7 note "song", base malt, adjuncts like oats, primary roast character malt, then you have a few roast/chocolate/bready/malty/caramelly malts to build up the back ground to support the primary roast character.
 
For the example above, I would love that! Others would call that amount of roast "restrained". I like to make a recipe, and then take notes as I drink it for tweaks for next time- more malt flavor? Add more/some Munich malt. More roast? And more roasted barley next time. And so on. In cases like this "less is more" is often a good bet.

That's what I'm going after... restrained but not muted. A medley of chocolate, coffee, caramel/toffee, dark fruits and roast. Each flavor note should stand out with the roast tucked in the background. I suppose that's part of the trick... having each stand out.

How would you describe a Bourbon County Brand Stout in both flavor and mouthfeel? I really enjoy that RIS and the flavors resonate on my palette. I suppose it's what I'm going after in a RIS. Is it considered cloying in your opinion? The roast is definitely tucked into the background from my perception.
 
Edit: Before I forget to say this. Before I truly start digging into making a recipe, I read, re-read, read it again, and then read it about 10 more times the BJCP style guidelines for the style I want to brew. Not that you have to follow BJCP guidelines to brew good beer (not at all in fact), but if you have a target to shoot for, you can hit much closer to the mark. When I started reading this thread first thing I did was go to my BJCP style guidelines app on my phone and paid special attention to the aroma and flavor descriptors.

Thanks for the tip. I still have a lot to learn and never would've loaded the BJCP app onto my phone. Very informative and good read. Until now, I wasn't very interested in BJCP, but it's a good tool to reference from. Lots to glean about the different styles. It provides clear and concise descriptors for my favorites styles of beer. American Porter and Stout- Imperial Stout (20C), and Strong American Ale-Double IPA (22A). Wish I would have done this sooner.

To some, 15% would be a tad high even for a RIS. There is the risk of complexity turning into muddled flavor. Think of it like a dish of food you are cooking for breakfast/lunch/dinner. If I am making some overeasy eggs and toast with bacon I'll throw a pinch of kosher salt and fresh black pepper on the eggs, its also good with a dash of hot sauce, and then a dash of toasted ground cumin, and then a spoon full of salsa... so on and so forth pretty soon its not eggs and toast and bacon, all you taste is the salsa and the hot sauce and theres some egg chunks mixed in. IPAs are the eggs and toast, RIS is the huevos rancheros, it can handle a bit more specialty malts and still taste like a big roasty RIS(you won't be able to taste all the invidual contributions from the specialty malts, you never really taste bay leaf in soup, but all soups are better with bay leaf).

Excellent analogy! Thanks. This really helps. Esp. for a newb-ish that's trying to take solid step forward brewing a RIS for the first time. Taking a good proven recipe and duplicating it is a good learning experience for me. With a few more brews under my belt I'll feel comfortable enough to expound on recipes I've created myself. Right now, cloning recipes is my path to brewing better beers.
 
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