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m00ps

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Not sure if @Brulosopher will see this, but...

Most of the IPA recipe thread Ive seen recently are all about late hop additions. Some like to emphasize dry hopping, some like whirlpool/hopstands. As a hop lover, I'd be interested to see what is more effective to achieve more hop character. Maybe an IPA recipe with a usual 60min addition, maybe a 10-15min addition and then either a large hopstand with no dry hop, or the same amount in a dry hop with no hopstand.

Just an idea...too lazy (and selfish) to do it myself
 
I would like to see a well-documented experiment like this as well. I've been experimenting with hop additions myself. So far, the best results have come from (I brew 3.25 gal batches) a small bittering addition, hop burst from 15 until flamout (~ 1oz every 5 mins), 2-3 oz whirlpool starting around 170-180 and then a healthy dry hop (3-4 oz).
 
yeah thats what I mean. Everyone in the know does dry hopping and whirlpooling but they usually emphasize one over the other. Personally, Im all about the whirlpool. I use 10oz or more and save 3-4oz for dry hopping (5gal batch)
 
10oz just in the whirlpool? That's extreme, but I bet it's delicious.

This weekend I'm gonna try a hop schedule I haven't tried before: 30 min bittering addition, hop burst from 15-flameout, equal whirlpool / dry hop addition (3-4 oz each)
 
I just brewed 2 5 gallon batches of IPAs using 8 ounces of Citra in each one.

3 ounces at 20 minutes. 3 ounces at flame out (chilled to 185-190). 2 ounces dry hopped.
Nice flavor and aroma.

In fact, I wonder if I can get a similar effect using less hops.
- 1 ounce of a high AA hop at 60. 1 ounce at 15 minutes. (And as an Experiment skipping it).
- 2 ounces at flame out (chilled to 185F)
- 1 ounce of dry hops.

And compare it to moving the 15 minute addition to the dry hop or 0.5 ounce more to dry hop and 0.5 ounces more to the flame out/whirlpool hops.
 
I would like to see the comparison of whirlpool temperatures (180, 160, 140 etc) with a target at certain oils in hops and the resulting flavor impact.

I have been trying to get whirlpool hops in below 180 while I am immersion chilling.
This way they don't volatilize away.

So my latest IPA recipe has:
a. first wort hop for major IBU addition
b. 15 min aroma hop addition 1/2 ounce of two different hops; and some IBU
c. whirlpool hop addition of a couple of ounces below 180, on the way down to 140 (which takes about 10-15 mins)
d. dry hop for last 4 days before kegging.
 
Not sure if @Brulosopher will see this, but...

Most of the IPA recipe thread Ive seen recently are all about late hop additions. Some like to emphasize dry hopping, some like whirlpool/hopstands. As a hop lover, I'd be interested to see what is more effective to achieve more hop character. Maybe an IPA recipe with a usual 60min addition, maybe a 10-15min addition and then either a large hopstand with no dry hop, or the same amount in a dry hop with no hopstand.

Just an idea...too lazy (and selfish) to do it myself

I'm sure he has something like that on his long list of exBEERiments, but honestly I would just shoot him a message via his contact form. I have in the past and he has been super responsive.
 
Not sure if @Brulosopher will see this, but...

Most of the IPA recipe thread Ive seen recently are all about late hop additions. Some like to emphasize dry hopping, some like whirlpool/hopstands. As a hop lover, I'd be interested to see what is more effective to achieve more hop character. Maybe an IPA recipe with a usual 60min addition, maybe a 10-15min addition and then either a large hopstand with no dry hop, or the same amount in a dry hop with no hopstand.

Just an idea...too lazy (and selfish) to do it myself

I'm one of the brulosophy contributors. Trust me, we have plenty of experiments planned dealing with hop additions, some very similar to what you're describing.

I would like to see the comparison of whirlpool temperatures (180, 160, 140 etc) with a target at certain oils in hops and the resulting flavor impact.

I just might have 7 mini test batches in my in my fermentation chamber right now testing whirlpool hop temperatures :D
 
I'm curious about a big whirlpool addition and NO dry hopping. So let's say you had 10 oz of hops put aside for a WP and dry hop. You might normally see 6 oz in the WP and 4 oz in the dry hop. But I'm curious at what 10 oz in the WP and no dry hop would get you? Flavor and aroma wise.
 
I'm curious about a big whirlpool addition and NO dry hopping. So let's say you had 10 oz of hops put aside for a WP and dry hop. You might normally see 6 oz in the WP and 4 oz in the dry hop. But I'm curious at what 10 oz in the WP and no dry hop would get you? Flavor and aroma wise.

you'll get more hop flavor in the beer, and less on the nose. to oversimplify it- whirlpool is flavor, dry hop is aroma.

i think some hops do better in WP (citra) and others with dry hop (C hops). but that's just my opinion and preferences.
 
you'll get more hop flavor in the beer, and less on the nose. to oversimplify it- whirlpool is flavor, dry hop is aroma.



i think some hops do better in WP (citra) and others with dry hop (C hops). but that's just my opinion and preferences.


I just bottled a beer yesterday and had great results with flavor and aroma from the WP and no dry hop. Did an 8 oz WP for an hour at 170* and let it cool naturally over the hour. Recipe was a 2.5 gallon batch. We'll see how it turns out after being carbed.
 
I just bottled a beer yesterday and had great results with flavor and aroma from the WP and no dry hop. Did an 8 oz WP for an hour at 170* and let it cool naturally over the hour. Recipe was a 2.5 gallon batch. We'll see how it turns out after being carbed.

are you saying you held it at 170 for an hour? or that you chilled it to 170 and then let it drop naturally after it hit 170?
 
I just bottled a beer yesterday and had great results with flavor and aroma from the WP and no dry hop. Did an 8 oz WP for an hour at 170* and let it cool naturally over the hour. Recipe was a 2.5 gallon batch. We'll see how it turns out after being carbed.

:eek:

And I thought my 2-oz WP additions to my 2.5 G batches was something...

:D
 
are you saying you held it at 170 for an hour? or that you chilled it to 170 and then let it drop naturally after it hit 170?


Chilled to 170* and let it drop naturally. After the hour the wort was around 145-150*.
 
From BYO April 2013:

Another factor to consider is how to handle dry hopping your hop-forward beers if you employ an extended hop stand. Rock Bottom Restaurant & Brewery performed an extensive study on hop stands and dry hopping under the guidance of the Portland, Oregon brewmaster at the time Van Havig, (now of Gigantic Brewing Co., Portland, Oregon). The study was published by the Master Brewers Association of the Americas Technical Quarterly and considered beers that were hopped in four different ways, short hop stand (50 minutes) and no dry hops, long hop stand (80 minutes) and no dry hops, no hop stand and just dry hops and finally half the hops in hop stand (80 minutes) and half the hops for dry hopping. Beers produced using exclusively hop stands and the beers produced using exclusively dry hops will both result in well-developed hop characteristics, but there were some nuances. The long hop stand developed more hop flavor and aroma than the short hop stand indicating that essential oils were still soaking into the wort after 50 minutes. The exclusively dry hopped beer received its best marks in the aroma department, higher than the hop stand beers, but scored lower for its hop flavor. The beers where only half of the hops were added for the hop stand and half were added for aroma ended up scoring high in both departments. Havig's study also showed that adding 1 lb./bbl (0.45 kg/bbl) Amarillo® dry hops produced the same amount of hop aroma as ½ lb./bbl (0.23 kg/bbl), indicating diminishing returns at higher dry hop rates.
 
From BYO April 2013:

Another factor to consider is how to handle dry hopping your hop-forward beers if you employ an extended hop stand. Rock Bottom Restaurant & Brewery performed an extensive study on hop stands and dry hopping under the guidance of the Portland, Oregon brewmaster at the time Van Havig, (now of Gigantic Brewing Co., Portland, Oregon). The study was published by the Master Brewers Association of the Americas Technical Quarterly and considered beers that were hopped in four different ways, short hop stand (50 minutes) and no dry hops, long hop stand (80 minutes) and no dry hops, no hop stand and just dry hops and finally half the hops in hop stand (80 minutes) and half the hops for dry hopping. Beers produced using exclusively hop stands and the beers produced using exclusively dry hops will both result in well-developed hop characteristics, but there were some nuances. The long hop stand developed more hop flavor and aroma than the short hop stand indicating that essential oils were still soaking into the wort after 50 minutes. The exclusively dry hopped beer received its best marks in the aroma department, higher than the hop stand beers, but scored lower for its hop flavor. The beers where only half of the hops were added for the hop stand and half were added for aroma ended up scoring high in both departments. Havig's study also showed that adding 1 lb./bbl (0.45 kg/bbl) Amarillo® dry hops produced the same amount of hop aroma as ½ lb./bbl (0.23 kg/bbl), indicating diminishing returns at higher dry hop rates.

Nice find! Yeah this correlates exactly with what I would expect but its good to see some conclusive results. I like to focus on flavor so I mostly emphasize my hopstands over dry hopping.

Did the article mention what temperature they did the hopstand? Im writing an article on my IPA techniques where I will do 2 staggered hopstand additions
 
It looks like they recommend something along these lines: half of your knockout hops right at flameout and whirlpool, than hold for 30 minutes, and add second half at 170 F for 15 minutes, than cool like normal. That is at least from BYO, but it doesn't go into detail about the actual study quoted from above.
 
its in another article they have somewhere, the ranges are from boiling down to 190ish, 185 to like 170ish, then below 170. that's just off the top of my head. each range produced different nuances according to the volatization points of the hop oils like myrcene, humulene, adhumulene, etc.

at some point we're just guessing what we're doing, as the only folks who get enough repetitions to be able to reliably pick up the nuances are folks making the same beer over and over again-- i.e. commercial brewers.

but if i recall, the general descriptions of each temp range were enough to give you an educated guess as to where you'll want to hold in whirlpool. it even gave me the idea to use different hops at different temps and see what sort of difference that made.

biggest takeaway for me is that whirlpool gets the hops into the beer and gives you flavor. dry hop just gives you aroma. i lean toward whirlpool. aroma is nice, but for the amount we pay for these new hop varieties i wanna friggin taste em! $30+ per lb for 2015 nelson. holy cow. its enough to drive a man to drink.....
 
And it isn't like there is no aroma at all. If you can taste it, you can smell it!
 
you'll get more hop flavor in the beer, and less on the nose. to oversimplify it- whirlpool is flavor, dry hop is aroma.

I'm not terribly sure I still buy this conventional line of reasoning. Make 2 beers with the same grist, hop one to 50 BU at 60 min with Saaz the other to the same BU with Citra, keep everything else exactly the same. I'd bet you'll get bitterness, flavor, and aroma, and that they'll be different.

Haven't done a formal xBmt myself, yet, but it's on the list :mug:

And it isn't like there is no aroma at all. If you can taste it, you can smell it!

Indeed!
 
Make 2 beers with the same grist, hop one to 50 BU at 60 min with Saaz the other to the same BU with Citra, keep everything else exactly the same. I'd bet you'll get bitterness, flavor, and aroma, and that they'll be different.

This one I'm quite interested in. :mug:

What I want is a Flavor Curve that shows flavor ramping up for X minutes of hops boiling, then decreasing. There is some made up chart floating around, but no experimental or measurements backing it.

Whats the optimal boil time for flavor? 15 minutes? 20 minutes?
Or 0, instead doing all flame out additions at say 185F (for example) for 50 minutes (for example).


[made up examples]
If you boil Citra for 60 minutes do you get 5% of the flavor you would get compared to a 15 minute boil? 10%? 1%?
If the answer is 5% then that would probably be hard to detect, unless you use a lot of hops and less grain.


At 60 minutes do you really get any aroma from the hops? Isn't it 99% gone by then? Or is there still 5% remaining?


How much aroma do you get if you boil for 15 minutes compared to flame out? 5%? 10%?
 
there's no really accurate way to measure flavor or aroma. I just know that anything over 30min or so from flameout isnt going to really be detectable at all except for the bitterness. I think 15min has some taste, but if I really want a hop to be upfront on the palate, I use it for a flameout steep/whirlpool addition. This also provides a decent amount of aroma, but not as much as dry hopping.
 
I'm not terribly sure I still buy this conventional line of reasoning. Make 2 beers with the same grist, hop one to 50 BU at 60 min with Saaz the other to the same BU with Citra, keep everything else exactly the same. I'd bet you'll get bitterness, flavor, and aroma, and that they'll be different

Of course they will, it's apples vs oranges. Not what I'm saying at all. Let's back up and make sure we keep it straight here. we arent trying to compare different hops. We're only speaking of whirlpool vs dry hop. ( or at least I am). not differences between each hop.

the entire premise of early addition vs late vs whirl vs dry is that each varying level of time+temp produces a different result. That's why we refer to them as bittering hops, aroma, dual, etc.

Why wouldn't this same difference in time vs temp produce different results?
Whirl =. high temp + short time
Dry hop= room temp+ lots of time.

Variables for each are opposites. Why would we expect the same result? (-all rest being equal)
 

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