Sour Beer and Whole Grapes

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poeq

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Hi so I'm brewing a single gallon batch of a sour beer with a pseudo lambic base (I used malted wheat instead of raw un-malted wheat) that Ive fermented on yeast propped up from a bottle of Jolly Pumpkins La Roja. Im about two months in right now and eight days ago I dropped a pound of white grapes onto the beer.

Ive been trying to find info on aging beer on whole grapes and have found some suggestions that leaving the beer for too long on the grapes can extract tannins which ideally i would like to avoid. See here:

http://babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1380655815

But fermentation just really started going within the past three days. Im curious if anyone has any info on the time span at which tannins become extracted into the beer? Ideally I would like to dry out the beer/grapes as much as possible and let fermentation ride out but I dont want to soil the beer with the tannins that might also come with that...

Anyone have experience with aging grapes on sour beer and can give input to how i should treat this?
 
How long are you planning to sit on this bad boy before drinking?

I'm guessing that, if you're using a lambic-ish process, you're looking at many more months at a bare minimum, in which case, I wouldn't worry about tannins – I read in @OldSock's book, American Sour Beers, that lambic brewers don't worry about tannins extracted in their long, hot sparge (heh, that sounds dirty now that I've typed it out...) because they tend to drop out solution with the long aging (one year minimum).

Now, if you're looking to turn this around more quickly, those tannins might be something worth worrying about – but, then, so would bottle bombs, so, if it were my beer, I'd just let 'er ride, grapes and all.
 
If you follow Old Socks' blog, I believe he's stated he wouldn't bother using wine grapes again, and would simply add wine when the character was desired. He has posts on a doing it each way, grapes and wine.
 
You'll get some tannin extraction from the seedless grapes, but you'll probably be okay for a month or two on them. I've done a red sour on Ted wine grapes for about a month without unpleasant tannin extraction. I've also done. Pale sour on grapes from a friends back yard that has noticeable (but not unpleasantly so) tannins. That was probably on the grapes for three months. Both of those were seed-in whole crushed grapes though. I'm guessing you'll have slightly less impact from seedless, even with the skins.
 

well this is being fermented with a starter made from jolly pumpkins la roja so its not really very lambic ish outside the fact that i used a lambic ish base. ive read that jolly pumpkins yeast is pretty powerful and can sour a beer quickly/dry out a beer quickly. the time i age the beer is basically just dependent on the sourness/funkiness to the beer and the gravity staying the same for a few weeks. i dont necessarily plan to age it for over a year but it might end up going that long is the flavor doesnt reach what im thinking in my head.

i think so long as the fg stays consistent for a few weeks then i shouldnt have to worry about bottle bombs right? even if its only months instead of years old.


i have read oldsocks blog endlessly and ive read his book. hes been a huge source of information for me and brewing and shoutout to him for all hes done in the sour beer/homebrew world.

i think i might disagree here though, or maybe be misunderstanding something...if he means add wine to the fermentor or at bottling to achieve flavor (apart from the wine being pasteurized) wont the wine yeast take over? ive read that wine yeast can be really aggressive and will dry out all the remaining sugars and that wouldnt that come with particular flavors i might not be looking for?

i like the idea of the sugars in the fruit being dried out with sour beer yeast but maybe it only makes a marginal difference?

awesome thanks for the info. im gonna run some samples over the next few weeks and ill report in if it comes out good or bad :mug:

also the grapes im using are seedless.
 
He's talking about blending commercial wine into the finished beer in the bottling bucket or keg, as the quality of wine grapes we can get as homebrewers are usually inferior to what commercial breweries can get. Plus, it's illegal for a commercial brewery to blend wine into a beer.
 
i think i might disagree here though, or maybe be misunderstanding something...if he means add wine to the fermentor or at bottling to achieve flavor (apart from the wine being pasteurized) wont the wine yeast take over? ive read that wine yeast can be really aggressive and will dry out all the remaining sugars and that wouldnt that come with particular flavors i might not be looking for?



i like the idea of the sugars in the fruit being dried out with sour beer yeast but maybe it only makes a marginal difference?


Probably depends on the wine, but I would think the risks are low; no different than pitching bottle dregs of commercial sours bottled with wine yeast such as many of Russian River's. I would expect there is so little yeast in suspension in packaged wine, that it wouldn't stand a chance against the wild buggers in a more recently fermented sour beer. I've had sediment in aged wines before, but nothing that appears to be yeast.

By the way, I put a saison on backyard Concord grapes and several bottle dregs. Way over the top Jolly Rancher grape flavor. It was so strongly aromatic and flavored it tasted fake. I don't recall my ratio, it was either 1 or 2 pounds per gallon - I'm guessing the latter. The grapes and any other fruit I pick is vacuum packed and frozen. Then on the day of use, I usually thaw it in the bag in the microwave until it's soft enough for me to mush up. Then I add it to the beer. It's usually still cooler than the beer, so it slows the start of secondary fermentation for a day or so. I won't be doing that level of Concord grapes again if at all. I ended up blending it down to get through it. The last gallon was kept as my sour dreg collector and starter.
 
Do you think you'll get safe off tannins if you just use husk less grapes?

You know... Like for doing white wine the main difference from the red, is that the grapes and the husks are separated, and only the interior is used.

I would guess that the tannins are mainly in the husks.

By the way, I'm Hugo from Portugal, please consider my presentation to the forum here? :) hi everybody
 
Welcome to the forum Hugo.

Some tannins may help a sour which otherwise could have thin mouthfeel from high attenuation. Tannins in red wine are also contributed by the seeds, not only the skins. In my batch, they certainly didn't cause an issue. But the Concord grape flavor was overpowering, so maybe it is something to be concerned with in a more balanced, lighter combination.
 
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