sour mash vs acidulated malt.

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ldtagtrip

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im looking to brew a saison with a sour taste and im not sure which technich to use.
if you could guide me on the right way i would apreciate it.
i also forgot to mention pediococus that should contribute to sourness.

thank you very much.
 
could try using Farmhouse sour ale yeast from the yeast bay and minimal hops.

Thats my plan for a sour saison.
 
I have used up to ~8% acidulated malt in a saison before (3711 with Brett L.), and didn't get much noticeable acidity. I think that if you want it to be tart, you'll need to either go big with the acidulated malt (15-20%?), or just use lacto somewhere in your process.
 
Acidulated malt is used to lower the ph of brewing water slightly to the level where it's needed if it's too high. That was always it's intention. I treat all of my water (RO or distilled) with phosphoric acid to a ph of 5.5 before I ever start my mash. I do this for all beers. I want mash ph to be at a certain level for max extraction efficiency. It's only after the mash that I'd worry about lowering ph for a beer style. I treat them all the same up until the wort gets into the kettle. You can either sour the mash before boiling, or sour the finished beer after boiling. Souring the wort before boiling is nice because during the boil you kill any bacteria. Souring after the boil during fermentation can be done through lactobacillus, which can be added with the main yeast, or even before you added the yeast by several days. There are multiple techniques here but let the mash do it's thing and worry about souring after that step.
 
thank you very much, would you recommend lactobacilus, brett and a saison yeast all togheter or sacharomices first and then the others after fermentation??
 
Acidulated malt is used to lower the ph of brewing water slightly to the level where it's needed if it's too high. That was always it's intention. I treat all of my water (RO or distilled) with phosphoric acid to a ph of 5.5 before I ever start my mash. I do this for all beers. I want mash ph to be at a certain level for max extraction efficiency. It's only after the mash that I'd worry about lowering ph for a beer style. I treat them all the same up until the wort gets into the kettle. You can either sour the mash before boiling, or sour the finished beer after boiling. Souring the wort before boiling is nice because during the boil you kill any bacteria. Souring after the boil during fermentation can be done through lactobacillus, which can be added with the main yeast, or even before you added the yeast by several days. There are multiple techniques here but let the mash do it's thing and worry about souring after that step.

How do you even get an accurate PH reading of RO or Distilled water when there isn't enough ions to give an accurate reading?

thank you very much, would you recommend lactobacilus, brett and a saison yeast all togheter or sacharomices first and then the others after fermentation??

i like how you glossed over my post when i suggested the lacto sach blend from yeast bay that is meant to make a sour saison. if you keep IBUs under 5 you will get a sour saison with that blend and can brew like you normally would.
 
To the OP, what exactly are you going for? Are you trying to clone a commercial example? Do you want the typical spicy peppery character that is typical for the style, or is it more saison in grain bill but less so in fermentation profile?

Just a couple thoughts, if you use pedio, you have to use brett. Pedio will generate diacetyl which brett will clean up. Without brett, you'll end up with a sour beer with buttered popcorn character...aka gross.

If you want to turn it around fairly quickly, I'd go with lactobacillus for souring. Souring with with lactobacillus gives more complexity than you'll get from acid malt alone.

I haven't had much luck souring pre-boil but lots of people swear by kettle souring or sour mashing, so check out those procedures. As mentioned, you can kill off the bacteria via the boil, so it eliminates sanitation concerns and locks in the sourness level. And you don't have to worry about IBUs or hop oils causing problems for the bacteria.

If you sour post-boil, pitch the lacto and let it go for 2-6 days before pitching a sach and/or brett strain. Don't aerate...in fact, purge your fermenter with CO2 if possible. Giving the lacto a headstart allows it to lower the pH without having to compete with yeast. IME, room temp works fine for this process. I've done this with Berliners, a Sour Saison I made, a Flanders Red and so on. In all cases I had no problem getting the pH down in the neighborhood of 3.0, which results in a pretty tart beer. Oh and keep the IBUs low...or non-existent. I use aged hops in most of my sours, so the IBUs are pretty close to zero.
 
fantastic, im going to follow thee procedure.
one last question, with the lactobacilus, do i need a starter?
 
fantastic, im going to follow thee procedure.
one last question, with the lactobacilus, do i need a starter?
I usually make a starter for lacto, but lower gravity than a yeast starter (1.020 rather than 1.040). Again, no aeration and if you can purge with CO2, even better.
 
Acidulated malt is used to lower the ph of brewing water slightly to the level where it's needed if it's too high. That was always it's intention. I treat all of my water (RO or distilled) with phosphoric acid to a ph of 5.5 before I ever start my mash. I do this for all beers. I want mash ph to be at a certain level for max extraction efficiency. It's only after the mash that I'd worry about lowering ph for a beer style. I treat them all the same up until the wort gets into the kettle. You can either sour the mash before boiling, or sour the finished beer after boiling. Souring the wort before boiling is nice because during the boil you kill any bacteria. Souring after the boil during fermentation can be done through lactobacillus, which can be added with the main yeast, or even before you added the yeast by several days. There are multiple techniques here but let the mash do it's thing and worry about souring after that step.


I'm curious as why you treat your water for all beers to a ph of 5.5 before the mash; sounds like you would be making adjustments after the mash since different grain bills will contribute different amounts of acidity to the overall mash ph (ie less contribution for a lighter SRM and greater acidity contribution for darker beers)
 
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