Lets Do This - 20 Gallon Concord 3 Vessel HERMS

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FuzzeWuzze

I Love DIY
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Figured i could start my build thread here, as i find it usually keeps me moving on my builds so i dont keep dilly dallying around and get it done!
You can see the spreadsheet i put together here, which contains all the parts i figured i would need and where they go as well as the best price at the time.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A-Vec6VM02F0qjdq2tq6084vTl5yYyhPXMcMNFPKR98/edit

Plan is 3 vessel EHERMS using all 20 Gallon(80Q) Concord Kettles and will be using StrangeBrew Elsinore as my panel, which is why its so simple(relative to a Kal panel).

Got a good deal on a 30"x60" Stainless table on Craigslist.
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Most of the parts i got from Brewhardware.com and Bargainfittings.com, everything not shown(Jaybird False bottom, all couplers) i got from Norcalbrewing on their big fathers day sale which saved me a ton of cash.
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Bottom of my panel, very cramped! Turns out small width 240V wall plates are expensive, i had to buy some and then dremel them bigger to fit around my locking plugs. The leftmost hole is where my main power will go in. The panel is a (almost) 10"x10" panel from Bud industries, when i was randomly checking late at night it was on sale for $31, so i threw caution to the wind and figured i'd find a way to cram everything i need in. In hindsight i should have just bought a bigger panel, as i could have used cheap generic plugs and wall covers. But it will be nice to keep it small i suppose as i only need to really access it to turn my elements on. Im going to do my best to cram everything in, i have a 12x12 plastic enclosure from Home Depot if i must, but i'd rather not re-drill all the holes and i like the look of the painted steel case.
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Next big step is Sunday when i take my 3 pots over to my welder buddies house and we drill everything and he sanitary welds all my fittings.

After that i plan to build my panel and at the same time get a few electricians out to give me quotes on running a new 220V line in my garage.

I am doing it in my garage so i dont plan on any ventilation other than having the garage door open and a box fan blowing if necessary.
 
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Heads up! I mentioned in my thread and posted a picture, that my first kettle had a pin-hole leak in it. I wish I'd tested it before I put a 2" hole in it, but then again I don't know that I would have bothered trying to send it back. It was easy to solder-patch it, but anybody with these Concord kettles might want to check for this as well. My other 2 are still in their boxes so I should check them tomorrow.
 
Heads up! I mentioned in my thread and posted a picture, that my first kettle had a pin-hole leak in it. I wish I'd tested it before I put a 2" hole in it, but then again I don't know that I would have bothered trying to send it back. It was easy to solder-patch it, but anybody with these Concorde kettles might want to check for this as well. My other 2 are still in their boxes so I should check them tomorrow.

Thanks for the heads up. I just got one in yesterday. I guess I'll be checking for leaks first thing in the morning.
 
I'll check mine asap, I know one of my old pots didn't leak until I put it on my propane burner. Hope none of these do, but as you said I can solder or have my buddy weld anything closed
 
Got my pots welded today, the welds are clean I need to find my angle grinder to buff them a bit to get the welding discoloration off but not urgent. Waiting for my stainless 50 ft coil to show up Tuesday. Then I'll drop off my pot for him to drill and weld the last holes once we know how big the coil is and he's gonna drop it off here Saturday. When I wasn't watching he accidentally welded a full coupler instead of half for one of the sight glasses, no biggie it's still functional just sticks out a bit further. Can't complain he's doing this for free and it would cost me a fortune, and he does good work. Having a friend who does metal fab welding as a job and has an entire shop in his garage has it's perks :rockin:

Need to do a leak test as well before i take it to him in case there are pinholes he needs to seal as SilverZero found with his pots.

All these pics are before i ran a grinder and paddle wheel to the inside of the welds to clean up any bumps, its all baby butt smooth inside now.

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Got my Stainlessbrewing HERMS coil today, god damn its a thing of beauty and pretty heavy @ about 10#. Its about 8.5" tall.

Question about elements, does it need to be fully submerged before use? Not that it matters as i measured my setup and my BK element is covered at somewhere between 3 and 4 gallons which is well below the smallest batches i'd be doing which is 5.5-6 Gallon.
 
Good job, I'm right with ya, doing my build also. I gotta make a build thread one of these days. I got my coil also today from Stainless Brewing, they did a fantastic job. I had my 2 inch ferrules welded Sunday for my ripple elements. Those electric elements really shouldn't be fired dry, so if you wait until they are covered with wort as the boil kettle fills, and then fire them you should be good to go.

Have fun with the rest of the build,

John
 
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Got my Stainlessbrewing HERMS coil today, god damn its a thing of beauty and pretty heavy @ about 10#. Its about 8.5" tall.

Question about elements, does it need to be fully submerged before use? Not that it matters as i measured my setup and my BK element is covered at somewhere between 3 and 4 gallons which is well below the smallest batches i'd be doing which is 5.5-6 Gallon.

Yes! never dry fire an element. I added a float switch to my HLT to be sure it would stop firing before the water level got below the element. Thinking about adding one to the BK too. I've only dry fire it once (while cleaning it after a batch) and was fortunate to catch it quickly, but cleaning the scorched crud off it was a real PITA!
 
Yes! never dry fire an element. I added a float switch to my HLT to be sure it would stop firing before the water level got below the element. Thinking about adding one to the BK too. I've only dry fire it once (while cleaning it after a batch) and was fortunate to catch it quickly, but cleaning the scorched crud off it was a real PITA!

I did the same in my HLT (float switch) after dry firing while sparging... unless the element is a true ulwd element they can easily overheat and burn out from dry firing.
 
Mine is a ULWD element, and while it didn't damage the element (I was able to shut it off very fast), it certainly scorched black all the stuff still on the element. It was no fun to clean!

But you finally got to clean your element fully :mug: It probably hasnt been that clean since it left the factory!
 
Got my final couplers welded on, 1 for whirlpool and the other two for my herms coil..a quick fitting at his place showed it sits about 1/2" above the element and doesnt seem to flex at all..its pretty damn rigid. I also got all my close nipples from BrewHardware today i forgot to order(somehow?) the first go around.

Having not brewed in a while i forgot how much the LHBS i goto gouges on some things, grains and what not are fairly priced...although i could probably find cheaper if i cared they are a 10 minute drive from work so easy to pick up things at lunch or on my way home. But damn, when i went in last week and saw they wanted $7 for ONE close nipple I laughed a bit outloud..i should have really mentioned something to them about it being absurd. I mean im willing to pay 2x or so over online in a pinch because they have to store it and order it and what not..but over 3x the cost? I could have spent $75 in just close nipples, which would have been ridiculous.
 
Sounds like it's coming along. Wow 7 bucks for a close nipple is a little crazy! Does that come with lube or what? Bobby has very reasonable prices and he will exchange stuff or credit your account with no hassels and I enjoy doing business with him. Are you clamping down your herms coil with a stainless steel or delrin (nylon) sleeve in your compression fitting? Just curious as some people use the nylon one to be able to remove it for more thorough cleaning, and some don't and just clean in place.......

John
 
Sounds like it's coming along. Wow 7 bucks for a close nipple is a little crazy! Does that come with lube or what? Bobby has very reasonable prices and he will exchange stuff or credit your account with no hassels and I enjoy doing business with him. Are you clamping down your herms coil with a stainless steel or delrin (nylon) sleeve in your compression fitting? Just curious as some people use the nylon one to be able to remove it for more thorough cleaning, and some don't and just clean in place.......

John

I need to look but im pretty sure the ones i got from BrewersHardware are stainless sleeve fittings, i dont really care about being able to remove it..we dont have hard water so there should be almost zero mineral build up or anything in the HLT. Other than the minerals im adding myself i suppose
 
Got the pots mostly plumbed up, turns out im one camlock short so ill have to goto the LHBS tommorrow. Hopefully tomorrow ill also do fill test's and finish calibrating my sight glasses and putting the vinyl stickers on them, then i need to drill the tiny holes for the upper hooks to hold the sight glasses in place. You can see the DS18B20 temp probes dangling out of the compression fitting...i had to cut the shrink wrap they put on them way back because it wouldnt fit through the compression otherwise. Also need to track down some isopropyl alcohol or something to get off the sharpie i used on my pots for the welder :) Im a little concerned about the gaps around the false bottom, but the pictures make them look worse than it is..but it also sits flat on the bottom and will filter through the side if any grain does sneak by the top so im not that worried. Waiting to take the plastic off the HERMS coil until im ready to start fill testing to keep from scratching it while moving crap around.

Whole Setup
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Close Up Of Temp Probe
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BK Outside & Inside
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MLT Outside & Inside
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HLT Outside & Inside
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Last steps before Brew Day
- Wire up Elements
- Get 240V Socket installed to left of my table(So far had 2 electricians come out for a bid, neither has actually sent me a bid, contacting a 3rd tommorrow).
- Wire up my control panel
- Last thing i'll do is probably make my hoses once i have a good idea for how they will be used and can size them accordingly, i have a big 50' spool of it but hate to waste since its so expensive!
 
Looks great, I'm in the middle of a similar build. Two questions:
Where did you get the sight glasses your using?
Why did you choose to put the MLT temp probe on the inlet instead of the outlet.
 
Looks great, I'm in the middle of a similar build. Two questions:
Where did you get the sight glasses your using?
Why did you choose to put the MLT temp probe on the inlet instead of the outlet.

The sight glasses were from Bargain Fittings
http://www.bargainfittings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=45&product_id=117

I decided to put the temp probe there because after a bunch of reading a lot of people were saying they get more accurate results measuring the output of the HERMS coil than the output of the MLT...that is yet to be seen but how i have it rigged for now.:tank: I realize that Kal does his out of the MLT output, so ill try both and see what i like more.

*Edit* But the more i read now maybe ill do it as Kal does...i mean his setup is the defacto setup.
 
The sight glasses were from Bargain Fittings
http://www.bargainfittings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=45&product_id=117

I decided to put the temp probe there because after a bunch of reading a lot of people were saying they get more accurate results measuring the output of the HERMS coil than the output of the MLT...that is yet to be seen but how i have it rigged for now.:tank: I realize that Kal does his out of the MLT output, so ill try both and see what i like more.

*Edit* But the more i read now maybe ill do it as Kal does...i mean his setup is the defacto setup.

It is, but I'd argue that's partly because he was the one who pioneered, polished, and published the whole system. He did his experiments and he's the de facto standard for a reason, but there's no harm in trying other ideas. Either way, you're going to be tweaking your system for your environment. Maybe you measure at the output and set it 4 degrees higher than mash temps instead of at the input and set it 2 degrees higher, but it's going to be pretty much the same either way.
 
It is, but I'd argue that's partly because he was the one who pioneered, polished, and published the whole system. He did his experiments and he's the de facto standard for a reason, but there's no harm in trying other ideas. Either way, you're going to be tweaking your system for your environment. Maybe you measure at the output and set it 4 degrees higher than mash temps instead of at the input and set it 2 degrees higher, but it's going to be pretty much the same either way.

True enough, did a leak test and everything but my HERMS coil is good now, after the move i cant find all my tools..need to go get a new wrench set at Harbor freight tommorrow since i dont have one that fits the compression fitting for the HERMS coil its spraying water all over inside the kettle.
 
I put my "MLT" temp probe on the coil outlet. It consistently measures 2 or 3 degrees cooler than my HLT, though it's been a while since I calibrated the probes.

I used to have it on the MLT output like Kal, but found it much harder to maintain consistent temps since there was quite a bit of lag between changing HLT temp and seeing that change on the MLT output. Which meant a lot of back and forth on the PID and longer to get stable mash temps.

Now that it's on the coil output it very closely tracks the HLT and as long as I hit mash temps on dough in, everything is consistent and stable.

One thing I haven't done (that I probably should have originally) is put spacers in the HLT coil to ensure even flow around and inside it. Is anyone else doing that and if so what do you use?
 
I used to use an external heat exchanger. I measured the average difference between my mash temp and the coil output temp and adjusted the probes accordingly in the PID. After that my mash temp was rock solid and bang on every time. You can place your probes pretty much anywhere and compensate for them this way.
 
I used to use an external heat exchanger. I measured the average difference between my mash temp and the coil output temp and adjusted the probes accordingly in the PID. After that my mash temp was rock solid and bang on every time. You can place your probes pretty much anywhere and compensate for them this way.


I tried that too but found it didn't work as well in my system. One problem is that I have 2G dead space in the MLT which means a lot longer to change mash temp if I don't hit it right at dough in. On my system the rate of change between coil output and MLT output isn't linear, so to raise mash temp faster I used to set the HLT 5 - 8 degrees higher (eg 155 if I mashed in at 146 and really wanted to get to 150 quickly). That's a bad idea, since all the wort in your coil is now way above your target mash temp. This seemed to cause attenuation issues and much higher FGs than I expected in some beers.

So all I mean here is, coil temp can have an effect too, independent of MLT temp, if there is lag between the two and you overcompensate the HLT temp. If your system is smaller you may not have a problem as there's less then inertia. But it's probably still useful to at least measure the temp at various points in the system to know how it'll react, and then decide where to finally put the probes.
 
ya, never really had the ability to raise temps fast so wasn't an issue for me. My adjustment was never more than a degree or two
 
I run a 15 gallon setup very similar. I'm using a stainless convoluted CFC as my heat exchanger. While it works great, it was supposed to be temporary until funds for an in kettle coil were saved up. 10 months later I'm looking to go all triclamp with herms coil in kettle

Using the CFC I have successfully been able to step mash but the lag time isn't great. Wondering now if I've been to aggressive with hlt temps to speed up mash temp rises...haven't had any attenuation issues but I'm sure I'm probably bludgeoning the enzymes I need
 
Another question, where are you guys sourcing 30A Spa panels? All i can seem to find at the big box stores are 50A ones? Or are you guys doing 30A just using 50A breakers or just forgoing the spa panel all together and using 30A GFCI breakers from the box?

I had one electrician come out and give me what i consider a ridiculous bid of $873, granted i am having them run the cable up and over my garage ceiling to the other side of the garage but still...

Also found out i need a permit to get the work done, whether I do it myself or not its about $60 just to install a new circuit and get it inspected.
 
Another question, where are you guys sourcing 30A Spa panels? All i can seem to find at the big box stores are 50A ones? Or are you guys doing 30A just using 50A breakers or just forgoing the spa panel all together and using 30A GFCI breakers from the box?

I had one electrician come out and give me what i consider a ridiculous bid of $873, granted i am having them run the cable up and over my garage ceiling to the other side of the garage but still...

Also found out i need a permit to get the work done, whether I do it myself or not its about $60 just to install a new circuit and get it inspected.
That sounds about right for new 220v service. I had quotes upwards of $2k (one was $2400) for new 220 service, 3' trench from garage, sub panel, 110v service (two breakers, one dedicated for a chest freezer) and other crap. I ended up paying $1100 through a guy I met at a beer shop.

Your setup looks fantastic. I regret how long I've taken to do mine, but I am happy it's coming along. Yours is so clean.
 
Another question, where are you guys sourcing 30A Spa panels? All i can seem to find at the big box stores are 50A ones? Or are you guys doing 30A just using 50A breakers or just forgoing the spa panel all together and using 30A GFCI breakers from the box?

I had one electrician come out and give me what i consider a ridiculous bid of $873, granted i am having them run the cable up and over my garage ceiling to the other side of the garage but still...

Also found out i need a permit to get the work done, whether I do it myself or not its about $60 just to install a new circuit and get it inspected.

$873!! Is he putting in new drywall and a floor drain too? :)

I just used a 30A breaker in my main panel and then a 50A spa panel between the main and my control panel. The 30A in the main will trip if you pull to much and the GFCI in the spa panel will do its job. This way when/if you bump the control panel up to 50A you can just swap out the breaker in your main panel.
 
$873!! Is he putting in new drywall and a floor drain too? :)

I just used a 30A breaker in my main panel and then a 50A spa panel between the main and my control panel. The 30A in the main will trip if you pull to much and the GFCI in the spa panel will do its job. This way when/if you bump the control panel up to 50A you can just swap out the breaker in your main panel.

Thats what i wanted to figure out, after permits and spa panel + 30a breaker i figure im at $130 or so according to my calcs. Add in another what..$100 for conduit, like 20-25' 8/4 wire, and another box for the outlet? That puts him at like $650 in labor which just seems ridiculous for such a small job...getting another one out to look as well soon.

I can understand if hes digging a trench that takes time like what Hello had, but hes literally just running wires from point A to point B...i cant see it taking a professional more than maybe 2-3 hours...hell i think even i could do it in 3 even second guessing and triple checking my work that would just be second nature to him...and at this point depending on what the other guy quotes me at I may just go that route.
 
Thats what i wanted to figure out, after permits and spa panel + 30a breaker i figure im at $130 or so according to my calcs. Add in another what..$100 for conduit, some 8/4 wire, and another box for the outlet? That puts him at like $650 in labor which just seems ridiculous for such a small job...getting another one out to look as well soon.

I can understand if hes digging a trench that takes time like what Hello had, but hes literally just running wires from point A to point B...i cant see it taking a professional more than maybe 2-3 hours...hell i think even i could do it in 3 even second guessing and triple checking my work that would just be second nature to him...and at this point depending on what the other guy quotes me at I may just go that route.

I would go with 6 gauge wire, just so that you are ready if you do want to move to 50A. That is what i did, only need to run it once that way. I think my spa panel was $60 at HD, conduit isn't that expensive so you are probably right with $100 there, add another $30-40 for the 30A breaker and $100 or so for the wire (not sure how far your run is.) Labor is expensive, but that still seams high to me.

Can you mount the conduit and run the wire and just have him connect and verify it all?
 
I would go with 6 gauge wire, just so that you are ready if you do want to move to 50A. That is what i did, only need to run it once that way. I think my spa panel was $60 at HD, conduit isn't that expensive so you are probably right with $100 there, add another $30-40 for the 30A breaker and $100 or so for the wire (not sure how far your run is.) Labor is expensive, but that still seams high to me.

Can you mount the conduit and run the wire and just have him connect and verify it all?

Would something like this not work?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-30-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-BR-Circuit-Breaker-BR230/100114666

I need to verify that i have BR breakers but from my quick research most Thomas & Betts are...all of the electricians that came out seemed to get worried it would be hard to find Thomas & Bett's breakers, but from everything ive read they just got bought out repeatedly and now are basically just Eaton..even Eatons product sheets state they work in Thomas & Bett's breakers..i cant help but wonder if he quoted me so high because hes buying some obscure Thomas & Bett's breaker that isnt even made anymore for $100 or something.
 
Would something like this not work?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Eaton-30-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-BR-Circuit-Breaker-BR230/100114666

I need to verify that i have BR breakers but from my quick research most Thomas & Betts are...all of the electricians that came out seemed to get worried it would be hard to find Thomas & Bett's breakers, but from everything ive read they just got bought out repeatedly and now are basically just Eaton..even Eatons product sheets state they work in Thomas & Bett's breakers..i cant help but wonder if he quoted me so high because hes buying some obscure Thomas & Bett's breaker that isnt even made anymore for $100 or something.

Sorry, i am not a licensed electrician and maybe someone with a bit more experience in that arena could help you with the breaker. I was just guessing with the $ estimate on a breaker, but that is what i put in my main panel just a 30A double pole breaker.
 
I believe you can do the work yourself and just have it inspected.

http://www.permitsprotect.info/electrical.html

Not sure what the cost difference would be. I will say that electrician is on my short list of careers I'd consider switching to if I wanted to switch careers. It's not that difficult if you learn how to do it right, and you can charge a good amount for your time. :)
 
I believe you can do the work yourself and just have it inspected.

http://www.permitsprotect.info/electrical.html

Not sure what the cost difference would be. I will say that electrician is on my short list of careers I'd consider switching to if I wanted to switch careers. It's not that difficult if you learn how to do it right, and you can charge a good amount for your time. :)


Thats probably the route im going down but want to have the other guy come out and give me a quote, if its only like $100-150 difference or something between a DIY i will just hire them so i dont have to deal with it and the possibility of a failed inspection and having to pay more money to fix any issues and bring them back out again.
 
I put in a 50A outlet in my garage. My panel is on the back "right" wall, and I put the outlet on the front "left" wall. Ran 50ft of 6/3. IIRC the cable was $145. The PVC conduit (drop from ceiling), outlet, enclosure, cover, staples, etc. were probably $45. The 50A GFCI outlet was a whopper at $150. So, materials alone were ~$350. Definitely busted my hump sweating bullets and squeezing through tight spaces in the attic, so $500 for labor doesn't seem that unreasonable for a few hours of work.

Wondering BTW why contractor's work needs be inspected but a neurosurgeon's doesn't? CraZy!

-BD
 

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