How long before brew day do I need to make a starter?

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Hayden512

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Used dry yeast for my first two batches. Going to do a saison this weekend hopefully so I'm going with w.

wyeast3711
5 gal batch
 
I make mine Monday or Tuesday for a weekend brew.

No rush.

48 hours on a stir plate and then into the fridge to cold crash till shortly before I want to pitch the yeast.

Decant off the starter wort, swirl up the yeast cake in the small volume left, pitch it and BOOM! Wort turned into beer in an instant.

Edit: I sould add that I allow the starter to warm close to pitching temperature (48-62F depending on the brew)
 
I make mine Monday or Tuesday for a weekend brew.



No rush.



48 hours on a stir plate and then into the fridge to cold crash till shortly before I want to pitch the yeast.



Decant off the starter wort, swirl up the yeast cake in the small volume left, pitch it and BOOM! Wort turned into beer in an instant.



I know it won't be as effective but can I just swirl my starter container a few times throughout the day in place of the stir plate? I currently don't have one.
 
I just constatnly shake and agitate my starters. Ive gotten in the habit of making them 4-5 days before and leaving them undisturbed the day before brewing. This way I get a nice settled yeast cake and I can decant all the oxygenated starter wort

Just be careful when you shake it first thing in the morning or getting home from work. It like builds up over time and will take off. Ive shot stoppers out the top of my flasks several times. Do it over the sink if it hasnt been shaken in a while
 
Yeah, if you want to decant the starter wort, you'll want to make it at least 4 days prior. I am stirplateless too and I am making one tonight, will let it ferment out between tonight and Thursday, throw it in the fridge Thursday mid-morning for a cold crash, decant and then step up Friday or Saturday and then brew on Monday. I might not decant off the 2nd batch of wort, but it'll only be 650 ML, so that's no big deal. Just give it lots of shakes in the meantime and follow what mOOps said above my post :)
 
A good "poor man's stir plate" is to get a load of laundry together and run it through the wash with the starter sitting on top of the machine. Doing this with a pair of shoes in the dryer works pretty well but it's noisy
 
I made a stir plate with PC fan, HD magnets, stir bar and a growler.
I make up the 1.030-40 wort Friday 10pm and 12 hrs later it's going gangbusters on the stir plate and I throw the whole thing into the brew I make Sat morning.
 
Sorry for the Hijack, but I will also be doing my first starter for a Sunday brew. It's for a 10 gal batch, so here is my plan:

Make the starter on Wed night, and put it on my stirplate in my kitchen.
On Sat morning, drive it over to the garage where I brew (5 miles away), and put it in my keezer to cold crash.
Sunday morning, decant, then let it warm up during the brew day.

Anyone see any major flaws with my plan?
 
I usually go 36 hours on the stir plate, 24 more hours off the stir plate, and then 48 hours cold crashing if I can help it. Then before I start brew day, I decant off the spent starter "beer" and let it warm during brew day. So if I'm brewing Saturday AM, I want to have it in the fridge by Thursday AM, off of the stir plate Wednesday AM, and making my starter on Monday PM. If I have to skip 24 hours, then I'll lose 24 hours of cold crashing, and have in the fridge by Friday AM and bumping everything else forward a day.
 
I talked to one of the employees at my LHBS and he was of the opinion that a starter should only go about 20 hours on a stir plate and then it should be chilled. He said that would keep the yeast in a healthy growth mode. After 20 or so hours, the yeast may still be growing, but at a decreasing rate. He felt it was better to pitch when the yeast were still growing at an increasing rate. He could be full of crap, but I thought it was interesting.
 
I talked to one of the employees at my LHBS and he was of the opinion that a starter should only go about 20 hours on a stir plate and then it should be chilled. He said that would keep the yeast in a healthy growth mode. After 20 or so hours, the yeast may still be growing, but at a decreasing rate. He felt it was better to pitch when the yeast were still growing at an increasing rate. He could be full of crap, but I thought it was interesting.


this is more or less consistent with my practice. I pitch during the peak activity for yeast (basically think "high krausen" stage of fermentation within starter). This means making a starter only a day or two ahead of time, which also works better with my schedule (I often don't plan long-term my brewing schedule).

Cold-crashing is necessary for easier decanting and for preserving the yeast till pitching time, I guess. But this means yeast has to be warmed up and woken-up/"re-animated" again for pitching. To me this is counter-productive as it probably introduces a longer lag time and could stress out the yeast.

I see starter as not just providing the appropriate yeast cell count but also pitching an active, healthy yeast that will carry on the "momentum" and work on the wort.
 
this is more or less consistent with my practice. I pitch during the peak activity for yeast (basically think "high krausen" stage of fermentation within starter). This means making a starter only a day or two ahead of time, which also works better with my schedule (I often don't plan long-term my brewing schedule).

Cold-crashing is necessary for easier decanting and for preserving the yeast till pitching time, I guess. But this means yeast has to be warmed up and woken-up/"re-animated" again for pitching. To me this is counter-productive as it probably introduces a longer lag time and could stress out the yeast.

I see starter as not just providing the appropriate yeast cell count but also pitching an active, healthy yeast that will carry on the "momentum" and work on the wort.

All depends on the size of the starter. If I'm doing a 1L starter or less, I'll make it 24 hours ahead of time and pitch the whole lot, but if I'm going bigger starter than that, I don't want all of that starter "beer" where I'm only concerned with growing healthy yeast, not good beer flavor, going into my beer and impacting the gravity/flavor profile.
 
2 days works, if you want to maximize go with 4, once the yeast in the starter is done with the sugar extra days don't get you anything

Not quite. Yeast build up just about everything they're going to as far as cell count within ~24 hours. Then after yeast finish up fermenting sugar they then turn to replenishing reserves before going dormant. Which is why you either pitch at high krausen, or you let the yeast go through until they're entirely finished. In between is no good. I'd look up the exact science, but I've been drinking and I'm lazy :)
 
All depends on the size of the starter. If I'm doing a 1L starter or less, I'll make it 24 hours ahead of time and pitch the whole lot, but if I'm going bigger starter than that, I don't want all of that starter "beer" where I'm only concerned with growing healthy yeast, not good beer flavor, going into my beer and impacting the gravity/flavor profile.

I agree, but I would extend the cutoff to at least about 2L. The "bad flavor" from beer produced by starter yeast is overrated and overstated, in my opinion. Yes, it may not taste great when you taste it after just a day or two of fermentation (have many of you tasted your fermenting wort at the same stage?), but given full fermentation cycle and perhaps some conditioning, it definitely goes away, trust me. The same process happens when you pitch starter yeast into the wort, so if it taste so bad at 1 or 2L scale, it should taste similarly bad at 5 Gallons scale, if not worse.

Unless you make your starter at considerably higher temperature than fermentation (I try to keep both about the same). Then I can see the logic.

Also, pitching 1L of starter into 5 Gallons, or 20L of wort, is going to dilute it by quite a bit - a factor of 20.

In the end it's a bit of balance/compromise. Yes, you are pitching a starter with some beer that may contain some undesirable flavors in low concentration - the kind - in my experience - the yeast will clean up anyways once it goes through fermentation cycle - in fact it will produce the same type of "young beer" once you pitch the starter into the wort anyways.

But if you refrigerate, the starter takes longer (requires planning ahead), the yeast goes dormant once cold-crashed and it will not hit the wort at the same level of vigor as starter that is at the peak of its fermenting. If you try to decant without cold crashing for a day or so, you risk getting rid of the yeast in suspension that attenuate more strongly (and flocculate less), increasing your final gravity.
 
I agree, but I would extend the cutoff to at least about 2L. The "bad flavor" from beer produced by starter yeast is overrated and overstated, in my opinion. Yes, it may not taste great when you taste it after just a day or two of fermentation (have many of you tasted your fermenting wort at the same stage?), but given full fermentation cycle and perhaps some conditioning, it definitely goes away, trust me. The same process happens when you pitch starter yeast into the wort, so if it taste so bad at 1 or 2L scale, it should taste similarly bad at 5 Gallons scale, if not worse.

Unless you make your starter at considerably higher temperature than fermentation (I try to keep both about the same). Then I can see the logic.

Also, pitching 1L of starter into 5 Gallons, or 20L of wort, is going to dilute it by quite a bit - a factor of 20.

In the end it's a bit of balance/compromise. Yes, you are pitching a starter with some beer that may contain some undesirable flavors in low concentration - the kind - in my experience - the yeast will clean up anyways once it goes through fermentation cycle - in fact it will produce the same type of "young beer" once you pitch the starter into the wort anyways.

But if you refrigerate, the starter takes longer (requires planning ahead), the yeast goes dormant once cold-crashed and it will not hit the wort at the same level of vigor as starter that is at the peak of its fermenting. If you try to decant without cold crashing for a day or so, you risk getting rid of the yeast in suspension that attenuate more strongly (and flocculate less), increasing your final gravity.

The primary one I'm concerned with is oxidative compounds from routinely aerating yeast starters. Those do not age out at all, and are a necessary compromise for yeast health/cell count.
 
The primary one I'm concerned with is oxidative compounds from routinely aerating yeast starters. Those do not age out at all, and are a necessary compromise for yeast health/cell count.

I haven't thought about the oxidation angle. But remember that the starter is just one day old. Without going into hot side aeration discussion, if you pitch the yeast into a starter "wort", aerate it heavily (once - or even continuously with a stirplate) and then 12-36 hrs or so later when the yeast activity kicks in you transfer it to a much larger, also aerated wort, I would doubt oxidation is that much of a problem. It's a little like missing your aeration process and aerating 24 hour after pitching. Yeast will just metabolize it all up.

I would argue there is one good reason for refrigerating your starter and selecting yeast slurry - nothing to do with the decanting of the beer though. If you often harvest and reuse your yeast, and your practices are not perfect or you store it for a while, the viability of yeast may be questionable. So then you are guessing (at best) whether your harvested yeast that you stored for 2 months is 80% viable or 30% viable. Cold-crashing and letting it settle can help separate viable, healthy yeast from dead trub.
 
I haven't thought about the oxidation angle. But remember that the starter is just one day old. Without going into hot side aeration discussion, if you pitch the yeast into a starter "wort", aerate it heavily (once - or even continuously with a stirplate) and then 12-36 hrs or so later when the yeast activity kicks in you transfer it to a much larger, also aerated wort, I would doubt oxidation is that much of a problem. It's a little like missing your aeration process and aerating 24 hour after pitching. Yeast will just metabolize it all up.

I would argue there is one good reason for refrigerating your starter and selecting yeast slurry - nothing to do with the decanting of the beer though. If you often harvest and reuse your yeast, and your practices are not perfect or you store it for a while, the viability of yeast may be questionable. So then you are guessing (at best) whether your harvested yeast that you stored for 2 months is 80% viable or 30% viable. Cold-crashing and letting it settle can help separate viable, healthy yeast from dead trub.

My understanding was that many of the oxidation reactions require ethanol to be present, which even during yeast reproduction a small amount will be present due to the Crabtree effect. If the difference is between adding 8 hours (number pulled out of thin air for the record) to my lag with no flavor impact, and slightly less lag with a potential flavor impact, I'm fine with a little longer lag.
 
I'm planning on brewing a saison on Saturday. Do I have enough time if I make a starter tomorrow?
 
My understanding was that many of the oxidation reactions require ethanol to be present, which even during yeast reproduction a small amount will be present due to the Crabtree effect. If the difference is between adding 8 hours (number pulled out of thin air for the record) to my lag with no flavor impact, and slightly less lag with a potential flavor impact, I'm fine with a little longer lag.

I think your strategy is perfectly fine.

But for my own clarification, why are you concerned about oxidation or off-flavors for 24 hours after pitching yeast into a 1L or 2L starter wort, but not with oxidation or off-flavors following 24 hours after pitching this starter yeast into a 5G wort?

To me, starter is basically a mini-wort with very similar chemistry/biology going on.
 
I think your strategy is perfectly fine.

But for my own clarification, why are you concerned about oxidation or off-flavors for 24 hours after pitching yeast into a 1L or 2L starter wort, but not with oxidation or off-flavors following 24 hours after pitching this starter yeast into a 5G wort?

To me, starter is basically a mini-wort with very similar chemistry/biology going on.

Because I'm not runnning my full batch on a stir plate after pitching yeast. Were i to do a forced fermentation test then I would, but then i again wouldn't be looking for the best flavor.

Crabtree effect aside, the biochemical processes in a starter and different i thought. Maybe I'm wrong. I didn't memorize the science, just what i needed to do it up and it's too early in the AM to go looking it all up ;)
 
Because I'm not runnning my full batch on a stir plate after pitching yeast. Were i to do a forced fermentation test then I would, but then i again wouldn't be looking for the best flavor.

Crabtree effect aside, the biochemical processes in a starter and different i thought. Maybe I'm wrong. I didn't memorize the science, just what i needed to do it up and it's too early in the AM to go looking it all up ;)

well, I am not using stirplate and only stir a few times, should I get less of those flavors?

I am just thinking out loud, but is density of the yeast a factor? Yeast propagate differently depending on its density, and it has higher density in a starter than in a large wort, so perhaps this is the difference?
 
Beersmith is saying my estimated 1.079 saison w/ 3711 needs a 2.8L starter.

Can I get away with 2L? I don't really have a container ideal for a 3L starter
 
Beersmith is saying my estimated 1.079 saison w/ 3711 needs a 2.8L starter.

Can I get away with 2L? I don't really have a container ideal for a 3L starter

What I did in the past for big starters without a 5L flask was to split a pack of yeast between two different vessels. 50 billion cells into 1.5 liters twice should give you the same yeast count as 100 billion cells into 3L once.

The other option (that I would recommend) is going to be dialing the gravity back which would consequently reduce the amount of yeast needed. 1.079 is huge for a Saison. I tend to stick to a high end of 1.060-1.065, and even then it comes out strong if it attenuates super-dry like it's supposed to.

I think with 3711, because it's fairly easygoing for a Saison strain, you could get away with a smaller starter, and keep the temps a little lower. It should still go dry enough. However, were you using another strain, I'd say no because you need the high temps and the higher cell count to get it fully attenuate.
 
well, I am not using stirplate and only stir a few times, should I get less of those flavors?

I am just thinking out loud, but is density of the yeast a factor? Yeast propagate differently depending on its density, and it has higher density in a starter than in a large wort, so perhaps this is the difference?

That's more or less the idea. Cell counts proportionate to volume in a starter are substantially higher than cell counts in the main batch, and the yeast behave differently as a result. It's not a light switch like some folks seem to think it is, and there's both behaviours going on at the same time. But generally the growth cycle in a starter is different than the fermentation cycle in a full batch of wort. Again, my recollection of the science, so open to correction.

I would say less, probably, but at the cost of less yeast cells. Oxygen benefits the growth of the yeast (indirectly, something about sterol production), but also causes redox reactions with malt compounds into trans-2-nonenol or ethanol->acetaldehyde->acetic acid (or something). It's going to be minimal no matter what. Hence why in a 1L starter I don't worry about it. But larger starters, I'd rather have a few extra hours of lag time from non-high krausen yeast if it minimizes the more certain off flavors (even if minute, some is worse than none in my book) of a pitch of a larger volume of non-ideal starter "beer" that even without the oxidative compounds, will have a different malt character than what I want, potentially a different gravity, and dilute my hop character. Basically I try to pitch no more than 1L of starter slurry into a 5 gallon batch (or proportionally higher per batch size). When I cold crash and decant, it's usually closer to 250ml of slurry.

Meanwhile, I suppose I need to pull down a few books and reread them to make sure I'm not talking out of my ass ;)
 
What I did in the past for big starters without a 5L flask was to split a pack of yeast between two different vessels. 50 billion cells into 1.5 liters twice should give you the same yeast count as 100 billion cells into 3L once.



The other option (that I would recommend) is going to be dialing the gravity back which would consequently reduce the amount of yeast needed. 1.079 is huge for a Saison. I tend to stick to a high end of 1.060-1.065, and even then it comes out strong if it attenuates super-dry like it's supposed to.



I think with 3711, because it's fairly easygoing for a Saison strain, you could get away with a smaller starter, and keep the temps a little lower. It should still go dry enough. However, were you using another strain, I'd say no because you need the high temps and the higher cell count to get it fully attenuate.


Thanks for the info.

I just went out and bought a flask that can hold 3L since I figured I'd need it eventually. How would I go about building this? Would I boil the full 3L of water/dme and then pitch my yeast packet into that or do I wanna hold up?
 
the 3L flask could probably do like 2.5L max because of foaming and boil over. Id boil the whole amount (add fermcap if you can or you need to watch it VERY carefully). Chill then add the yeast. I usually just end up sticking a foam stopper on it and adding the yeast the next day
 
So I blended everyone's advice and made a starter

But...

When I opened my yeast I hadn't broke the nutrient packet. Do I have a problem?
 
Nope. Should say right on the package that breaking the nutrient pack isn't necessary, nor is allowing the pack to swell. It just wakes the yeast up a little bit and gives you some proof of at least some level of viability when the pack swells.

You should be fine. Carry on.
 
I'll offer this much advice or a reminder on this:

However you add your starter to your wort, whether you decant or not, be sure to leave about an inch or so of starter wort/beer in the flask or container. Then swirl it around to get the yeast cake broken up - otherwise a good portion of it will remain caked on in the flask.

Unfortunately I speak from experience because I screwed this up a couple weeks ago, so I boiled a small amount of water, chilled it, added it to my flask, swirled, and pitched. Just a 10/15 min inconvenience.
 
So I blended everyone's advice and made a starter

But...

When I opened my yeast I hadn't broke the nutrient packet. Do I have a problem?

Looking at your screen name I'm wondering if you're in Hayden, Idaho. If so I've got a used stir plate that I'll give you. I'm in CdA. :mug:
 
Looking at your screen name I'm wondering if you're in Hayden, Idaho. If so I've got a used stir plate that I'll give you. I'm in CdA. :mug:


Dang man, now you're making me wish I was from Idaho.

Unfortunate I'm from Michigan
 
Sorry for the Hijack, but I will also be doing my first starter for a Sunday brew. It's for a 10 gal batch, so here is my plan:

Make the starter on Wed night, and put it on my stirplate in my kitchen.
On Sat morning, drive it over to the garage where I brew (5 miles away), and put it in my keezer to cold crash.
Sunday morning, decant, then let it warm up during the brew day.

Anyone see any major flaws with my plan?

Sorry for quoting my own post, but my schedule changed and I wanted to get some input.
Instead of making the started wed night, I was not able to do it until really late thursday night, so I am not sure if I should still stop it now and start the cold crash this morning or if I should let it go until tomorrow? I will probably not be pitching this until tomorrow evening, so is there still time to cold crash, (hoping there is because there is just under 3L of starter) or should I just dump the whole thing in?

Thanks
 

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