I make mine Monday or Tuesday for a weekend brew.
No rush.
48 hours on a stir plate and then into the fridge to cold crash till shortly before I want to pitch the yeast.
Decant off the starter wort, swirl up the yeast cake in the small volume left, pitch it and BOOM! Wort turned into beer in an instant.
I know it won't be as effective but can I just swirl my starter container a few times throughout the day in place of the stir plate? I currently don't have one.
I talked to one of the employees at my LHBS and he was of the opinion that a starter should only go about 20 hours on a stir plate and then it should be chilled. He said that would keep the yeast in a healthy growth mode. After 20 or so hours, the yeast may still be growing, but at a decreasing rate. He felt it was better to pitch when the yeast were still growing at an increasing rate. He could be full of crap, but I thought it was interesting.
this is more or less consistent with my practice. I pitch during the peak activity for yeast (basically think "high krausen" stage of fermentation within starter). This means making a starter only a day or two ahead of time, which also works better with my schedule (I often don't plan long-term my brewing schedule).
Cold-crashing is necessary for easier decanting and for preserving the yeast till pitching time, I guess. But this means yeast has to be warmed up and woken-up/"re-animated" again for pitching. To me this is counter-productive as it probably introduces a longer lag time and could stress out the yeast.
I see starter as not just providing the appropriate yeast cell count but also pitching an active, healthy yeast that will carry on the "momentum" and work on the wort.
2 days works, if you want to maximize go with 4, once the yeast in the starter is done with the sugar extra days don't get you anything
All depends on the size of the starter. If I'm doing a 1L starter or less, I'll make it 24 hours ahead of time and pitch the whole lot, but if I'm going bigger starter than that, I don't want all of that starter "beer" where I'm only concerned with growing healthy yeast, not good beer flavor, going into my beer and impacting the gravity/flavor profile.
I agree, but I would extend the cutoff to at least about 2L. The "bad flavor" from beer produced by starter yeast is overrated and overstated, in my opinion. Yes, it may not taste great when you taste it after just a day or two of fermentation (have many of you tasted your fermenting wort at the same stage?), but given full fermentation cycle and perhaps some conditioning, it definitely goes away, trust me. The same process happens when you pitch starter yeast into the wort, so if it taste so bad at 1 or 2L scale, it should taste similarly bad at 5 Gallons scale, if not worse.
Unless you make your starter at considerably higher temperature than fermentation (I try to keep both about the same). Then I can see the logic.
Also, pitching 1L of starter into 5 Gallons, or 20L of wort, is going to dilute it by quite a bit - a factor of 20.
In the end it's a bit of balance/compromise. Yes, you are pitching a starter with some beer that may contain some undesirable flavors in low concentration - the kind - in my experience - the yeast will clean up anyways once it goes through fermentation cycle - in fact it will produce the same type of "young beer" once you pitch the starter into the wort anyways.
But if you refrigerate, the starter takes longer (requires planning ahead), the yeast goes dormant once cold-crashed and it will not hit the wort at the same level of vigor as starter that is at the peak of its fermenting. If you try to decant without cold crashing for a day or so, you risk getting rid of the yeast in suspension that attenuate more strongly (and flocculate less), increasing your final gravity.
The primary one I'm concerned with is oxidative compounds from routinely aerating yeast starters. Those do not age out at all, and are a necessary compromise for yeast health/cell count.
I haven't thought about the oxidation angle. But remember that the starter is just one day old. Without going into hot side aeration discussion, if you pitch the yeast into a starter "wort", aerate it heavily (once - or even continuously with a stirplate) and then 12-36 hrs or so later when the yeast activity kicks in you transfer it to a much larger, also aerated wort, I would doubt oxidation is that much of a problem. It's a little like missing your aeration process and aerating 24 hour after pitching. Yeast will just metabolize it all up.
I would argue there is one good reason for refrigerating your starter and selecting yeast slurry - nothing to do with the decanting of the beer though. If you often harvest and reuse your yeast, and your practices are not perfect or you store it for a while, the viability of yeast may be questionable. So then you are guessing (at best) whether your harvested yeast that you stored for 2 months is 80% viable or 30% viable. Cold-crashing and letting it settle can help separate viable, healthy yeast from dead trub.
My understanding was that many of the oxidation reactions require ethanol to be present, which even during yeast reproduction a small amount will be present due to the Crabtree effect. If the difference is between adding 8 hours (number pulled out of thin air for the record) to my lag with no flavor impact, and slightly less lag with a potential flavor impact, I'm fine with a little longer lag.
I'm planning on brewing a saison on Saturday. Do I have enough time if I make a starter tomorrow?
I think your strategy is perfectly fine.
But for my own clarification, why are you concerned about oxidation or off-flavors for 24 hours after pitching yeast into a 1L or 2L starter wort, but not with oxidation or off-flavors following 24 hours after pitching this starter yeast into a 5G wort?
To me, starter is basically a mini-wort with very similar chemistry/biology going on.
Because I'm not runnning my full batch on a stir plate after pitching yeast. Were i to do a forced fermentation test then I would, but then i again wouldn't be looking for the best flavor.
Crabtree effect aside, the biochemical processes in a starter and different i thought. Maybe I'm wrong. I didn't memorize the science, just what i needed to do it up and it's too early in the AM to go looking it all up
Beersmith is saying my estimated 1.079 saison w/ 3711 needs a 2.8L starter.
Can I get away with 2L? I don't really have a container ideal for a 3L starter
well, I am not using stirplate and only stir a few times, should I get less of those flavors?
I am just thinking out loud, but is density of the yeast a factor? Yeast propagate differently depending on its density, and it has higher density in a starter than in a large wort, so perhaps this is the difference?
What I did in the past for big starters without a 5L flask was to split a pack of yeast between two different vessels. 50 billion cells into 1.5 liters twice should give you the same yeast count as 100 billion cells into 3L once.
The other option (that I would recommend) is going to be dialing the gravity back which would consequently reduce the amount of yeast needed. 1.079 is huge for a Saison. I tend to stick to a high end of 1.060-1.065, and even then it comes out strong if it attenuates super-dry like it's supposed to.
I think with 3711, because it's fairly easygoing for a Saison strain, you could get away with a smaller starter, and keep the temps a little lower. It should still go dry enough. However, were you using another strain, I'd say no because you need the high temps and the higher cell count to get it fully attenuate.
So I blended everyone's advice and made a starter
But...
When I opened my yeast I hadn't broke the nutrient packet. Do I have a problem?
Looking at your screen name I'm wondering if you're in Hayden, Idaho. If so I've got a used stir plate that I'll give you. I'm in CdA.
Sorry for the Hijack, but I will also be doing my first starter for a Sunday brew. It's for a 10 gal batch, so here is my plan:
Make the starter on Wed night, and put it on my stirplate in my kitchen.
On Sat morning, drive it over to the garage where I brew (5 miles away), and put it in my keezer to cold crash.
Sunday morning, decant, then let it warm up during the brew day.
Anyone see any major flaws with my plan?
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