Which Trees to Plant???

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MtnGoatJoe

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Ok, so I have the option of planting some apple trees. I'm thinking I can get three cider apples to go with the two Honeycrisps I planed last year (and the two more I'll plant this year). I'd like a variety, so I'd like to get one each for Bittersweet, Bittersharp, and Sharp.

My question is, what cider apples should I start with? I'll be able to plant a few more each year, but this is the start.

Kingston Black looks like a safe choice for the Bittersharp. My cousin actually has a tree, so I'll be experimenting with that this year. What are my other options?

Binet Rouge or Frequin Rouge look interesting for the Bittersweet. But honestly, I have no idea.

And what about the Sharp?

I don't know anything about cider except that I like to drink it. I'm going to start making my own, and I'd like to experiment with different varieties, styles, and blends.
 
Find some suitable trees and get them into the ground as soon as you can.

Pay attention to the rootstock that they are on, as it will determine, among other things, the speed with which you will see a return on your time and money, as well as how many trees you can fit in an area.

As long as you have some healthy trees growing in your yard, you can graft scion wood of whichever varieties that you are able to source, onto the parent tree.

Much faster than starting from nothing, and you could easily enough, have more than one variety growing on a single trunk.

I have potted up apple trees on dwarfing root stock, out in the yard now. Two were failed grafts that I will propagate for more rootstock, the remainder should be Ambrosia IIRC. They should be going in the ground this year, likely when they have gone dormant, otherwise they will get heeled in for the winter and dealt with in the spring.

Good luck! Esp. in finding what you want as far as available trees or scions goes.


TeeJo
 
Find some suitable trees and get them into the ground as soon as you can.

TeeJo

Thanks TeeJo!

I don't have a space issue, so I'd like to keep the trees to a single variety. I'll have a better idea of what I like in a few years, but in the meantime, I'm looking for some inspiration on where to start.

If you could plant 3 different cider trees this year, what would they be?
 
If you just learning, pick up Claude Jolicouer's book http://www.amazon.com/dp/1603584730/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Most common eating apples fall in the Sharp category. You can blend in some Honeycrisp or locally bought cider if needed.

Kingston Black is gives you the Bittersharp.

Several varieties are listed as capable of producing Vintage cider (unblended), so I made sure I started with those. Of course only some of mine are just providing a handful of fruit this year, so I'm taking things I read for granted.

I'd choose 2 from from Yarlington Mill, Herefordshire Redstreak, Harry Masters Jersey, Dabinett, or Brown Snout. And then a Roxbury Russet or Golden Russet which are high sugar content and also a good eating apple.

Cummins Nursery will have plenty to choose from, but their selection for spring 2016 will start dropping steadily over the next few months. By January, the varietal choices get more limited and definitely the rootstock choices for each too.

Careful. I started with 3 trees. Then I planted 10 more in year two. Now I have over 20 when including perry pears too, and many first year grafts. My target is 12 varieties each of US, UK, and FR varieties. I'm holding out for a few specific, hard to find varieties and then I'll be there. It gets addictive.
 
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MtnGoatJoe, I don't rightly know which trees I would pick right now.

I would have to be a bit better prepared and I am not. Add to that, that I am in Canada, and there are rather fewer sources, and rather less transport options than there are in the US of A, for rapid transport of live trees, at prices that do not seem like usury.

My advice though, is pretty much about the rootstock. With it in the ground and growing, you have all the options open, with a little bit of grafting, up to and including sticking several varieties on to a single tree to try different things, as well as to be able to backtrack and essentially erase the mistakes of choice that you may make along the way.

I am blessed with an old commercial orchard, mostly Mac apples, on the family farm. If I were in a place to choose, I would try to find something that would complement those as a main source for the juice.

Have fun!

TeeJo
 
Ok, so as a working theory, I've picked 4 varieties, but I may only go with 2-3 depending on if I need to plant any pollinators (I still have to look that up).

Any thoughts?


Bittersweet: Tremlett's Bitter
Tremlett's Bitter fruit are medium sized and have a hard, bittersweet flavor, high in tannin. When blended with a sweet and a sharp cider apple, they help create a rich, refreshing overall flavor. Tremlett's Bitter is considered a bittersweet hard cider apple. Firm, medium size, apple. Good for blending, not much needed to spice up the cider.

Harvests September – October. One of my personal favourites and definitely one to get hold of if you have a high level of ‘roadside’ apples. Stephen Hayes describes Tremletts as a cider condiment, and I would agree, as it is so bitter it is almost inedible. Will give body to a weak cider, although does not have a great character of its own. No experience of growing, although does tend towards biennialism.


Bittersweet: Harrison
Originated in Essex County New Jersey before the American revolution and highly prized. The apple is yellow and elongated with rich yellow flesh. It produces a superior sweet cider. They are often picked when they fall in November. Trees are strong and vigorous.

The Harrison apple enjoyed the highest reputation as cider apple over a century ago. Originated in Essex County, New Jersey which at the time, early 19th century, was the most celebrated cider making district in America. It was grown extensively throughout Eastern United States until 1900. The flesh is rich, yellow, firm; pleasant and sprightly, but dry. Harrison apple juice makes an extremely dark, rich cider. The apple is scab resistant, and stores well. It remains one of the very finest apples for cider-making, either fresh or fermented. Historically planted for cider with the Campfields.​
Bittersharp: Kingston Black
Perhaps the epitome of all cider apples, Kingston Black is the most sought-after bittersharp variety in the States. This West Country English apple provides an ideal balance of sugar, tannin, and tartness without blending, and is considered to be the finest choice for making a single varietal cider.


Sharp: Redfield
Redfield is an unusual apple / crab-apple cross. It's key feature is its distinctive deep red flesh. The red pigmentation of the flesh also extends to the younger leaves and the wood of younger shoots.
The flavor for eating fresh is not great, but Redfield produces a particularly attractive red cider. Like Wolf River (its apple parent) it is also an excellent baking apple.

Redfield is cold-hardy, and easier and more reliable to grow than many red-fleshed apples.
Like many red-fleshed apple varieties, Redfield is related to Malus niedzwetzkyana, a species of crab-apple originating in central Asia and characterised by purple-red flowers, purple leaves, and red or pink fleshed fruits. Redfield was developed in the 1930s at the New York State Agricultural Experiment Station, and is a cross between Wolf River and Malus niedzwetzkyana. The fruit size is larger than most crab-apple / apple crosses, as might be expected given the very large size of Wolf River apples.


Edit: I figured out that Harrison is a bittersweet.
 
There is a bit of controversy about Tremlett's in N America, seems the tree sold under that name was the wrong tree. See if you can confirm if the tremletts you order is the same as the one grown in the UK. Ask about the provenance.
 
Have you looked at any of the Canadian bred trees? What zone are you guys in, will these euro trees grow there and have a long enough season? Some of the euro ones bloom really late so that might be good for you guys up north but then does that give them enough days to get ripened? How did you figure out Harrison is a bittersweet? WVMJ
 
I love tremlett. I planted one as the main bittering apple (dessert apples and a sharp cider apple make the rest). We have a few tremlett single variety ciders here in the UK and it's pretty tasty and bitter. Great for blending.
 
There is a bit of controversy about Tremlett's in N America, seems the tree sold under that name was the wrong tree. See if you can confirm if the tremletts you order is the same as the one grown in the UK. Ask about the provenance.

I'll have to look into that. Thanks!


Have you looked at any of the Canadian bred trees? What zone are you guys in, will these euro trees grow there and have a long enough season? Some of the euro ones bloom really late so that might be good for you guys up north but then does that give them enough days to get ripened? How did you figure out Harrison is a bittersweet? WVMJ

Via Google...

According to Sunset, Seattle is in Sunset climate zone 5, but according to the USDA, Seattle is in USDA Plant Hardiness Zone 8b: 15 to 20 (F).​

Our springs can be wet.

I don't know anything about growing zones, so this is good information.

What do I need to look here? If my USDA Plant Hardiness Zone is 8b, do I just need to make sure my trees are rated 8b or lower?

orangepippintrees.com also lists the "Summer average maximum temperatures". Is my goal to make sure the trees are rated at or above the summer average for Seattle: 76 (F) for July and August?

I should probably stop by the master gardeners booth at the farmers market on Saturday :-|

As for the Harrison, I'm just going by what orangepippintrees.com says.

Thanks!
-Joe
 
Washington state has an active extension service for fruit growers right? They might be the best ones to talk to about your area. For the Tremlets look up Geneva Tremlet for discussions about what it might or might not be. Zone 8, you might be able to grow some Southern cider apples also. WVMJ
 
Claude, the author of the book I referenced is up in Canada (USDA zone 4), so his recommendations in his book are likely to apply to you (which aren't necessarily the same as my suggestions).

First blush, I like your picks. Harrison with Campfirld are 2 U.S. varieties I'm aiming for.
 
Ok, so I have an update on my plan. It turns out (not surprisingly) that I've been going about this all wrong.

The first thing I needed to do was look at my soil conditions. My soil can be very wet in winter (with occasional flooding), so I need to go with G.30 rootstock. Even with this rootstock, my trees may not survive. I'm hoping they'll have a few years to get established before the next flood.

After I decided on the rootstock, I needed to see what was available. orangepippintrees.com is an excellent source of information. It even lists the SG for certain cider trees. Anyway, they have bittersweet and sharp cider trees on the G.30 rootstock, but not bittersharp. For the bittersharp, I found a Foxwelp at cumminsnursery.com.

The other thing that I needed to do while building my list of options was to look at pollination groups, to make sure everything gets pollinated.

With all that taken into account, I found one bittersharp, 3 bittersweets, and one sharp. There are likely more options, but my time is limited, so I've cut myself off from more research. Of the 3 bittersweets, I'm going with Harry Masters Jersey
. For the sharp, I'm going with Redfield. And for the bittersharp, I've chosen foxwelp. I've also decided to plant a Wickson Crab, which is supposed to be good for jams, jellies, and cider.

Other considerations are how much fruit the trees produce, and how many years they take to be productive. I have lots of space, so it's more important for my trees to be hearty. If these survive the winter, I'll probably plant a second set of the same trees next year (depending on how much fruit I think I can get at full production). After year two, I'll probably find different cider varieties to plant.
Eventually, I'd like enough production to get a few hundred gallons of juice each year from hard cider trees. I'd also like to plant enough sweet apples to equal about 50% of my total production (sweet apples are easy to come by, so these won't be a priority for a while).

Anyway, I hope that helps other newbies.
 
You don't need bittersharps. All you need are bittersweets (tannins), sharps (pH) and sweets (OG). Foxwelp is meant to be a good, traditional cider apple (a bit biannual if I remember right) so it's definitively an asset, but not a must. If you like west country style cider make sure to have enough bittersweets as you can still replace sharps and sweets up to a certain extent with dessert or cooking apples. Note that lots of dessert apples very sharp too!

I'm not a massive fan of Dabinett as a single apple cider for flavour (a bit too rich and sweet?) but it's a good, reliable, heavy cropping bittersweet that you might want to consider for blending. It's probably the biggest cider apple around here.
 
You don't need bittersharps. All you need are bittersweets (tannins), sharps (pH) and sweets (OG). Foxwelp is meant to be a good, traditional cider apple (a bit biannual if I remember right) so it's definitively an asset, but not a must.

Thanks, that's a good point!

Part of this project is for experimentation. I kindof envision myself having a small orchard with a bunch of different varieties that I can experiment with and share with friends. I don't think I'll ever go commercial, but maybe I'll get to the point of selling a little juice to other enthusiasts. So yeah, I don't "need" bittersharps, but I'm curious, and the monetary cost is minimal (even though it will be several years until the trees are producing).

What are your favorite cider apples? Why?
 
I've got my list of trees in my profile but since the only one that has produced yet is the Cortland, we don't know which ones to recommend! :p

Looking to see what others like also.

Cool list there. Dabinett, Kingston Black and Yarlington Mill are probably the most popular apple varieties you get here in commercial vintage ciders. Tremlett's Bitter, Brown's and Redstreak would be some of the next ones.
 
Well, I figured we needed to get our apples started asap, so the choices were based on Jolicoeur and Phillips, what is available for zone 4, and a balance of cider, cooking and canning (as well as keeping.) I can only hope that we don't lose any of them - it was a really snarky winter last year....
 
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