Trying to Understand How Yeast Works

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fishhead202

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I've started using starters, but the logic behind me escapes me.

If I make a starter, I understand that I'm starting with more yeast. That, in turn will eat the wort sugar and convert to booze quicker than without.

My question is; wouldn't waiting a bit longer have the same effect, just take a week or so longer?

What is the advantage to a starter other than the 'head start'? I've heard it's a 'cleaner' fermentation, but don't know what that means nor why it occurs.

Thanks, what I've read on starters I'm either completely missing, or misunderstanding.
 
The way I understand it with the starter is it does 4 major things.

1. Increases the starting population so theres less time used reproducing.

2. Increases the hardiness of the yeast, their cell walls and such are stronger when you have a starter on a stir plate from the constant agitation.

3. Removes carbon dioxide waste gases while the yeast are reproducing which makes for a healtier enviroment (prevent dwarf mutant yeast cells I think I read).

4. Increases sterol stores by pulling increased dissolved oxygen into the wort while the starter is going, sterols help the yeast reproduce, as well increases their vitality post fermentation so you can harvest the yeast for additional generations.
 
You are correct that waiting longer would get you mostly the same result with fewer yeast cells, but there's a few problems with that.

1) Bacteria grows about 6x faster than yeast. So if you pitch fewer cells, the yeast has to put more work and time into making babies up front, and the bacteria can quickly outpace your yeast. So a longer lag time (the time from pitching to active fermentation) = higher the risk of infection.

2) During the initial lag time, the yeast are reproducing by absorbing oxygen and eating sugar to store up energy. If you start with fewer cells, they have to create more generations of yeast before they reach their ideal maximum cell number ("saturation" which is determined by your wort volume and gravity). This means that the older generations start to die off and they also produce more esthers which can result in off flavors in your beer. So starting with more cells (a starter) means that the yeast need fewer generations to reach saturation which means they can get to their main business of producing alcohol faster.

3) Starters allow the yeast to hit the ground running and ensure that they are all metabolically active, and "pre-tuned" to barley sugars, so they have to adapt less when they hit the wort. This, again, makes them more efficient and produce fewer byproducts like esthers and diacatyls so you'll get fewer off-flavors.

Hope that helps!
 
I've started using starters, but the logic behind me escapes me.

If I make a starter, I understand that I'm starting with more yeast. That, in turn will eat the wort sugar and convert to booze quicker than without.

My question is; wouldn't waiting a bit longer have the same effect, just take a week or so longer?

What is the advantage to a starter other than the 'head start'? I've heard it's a 'cleaner' fermentation, but don't know what that means nor why it occurs.

Thanks, what I've read on starters I'm either completely missing, or misunderstanding.

Most people think that if you significantly underpitch there is a chance that yeast cant reproduce enough to fully ferment the wort. That and it stresses the yeast resulting in off-flavors. Also the quicker start of fermentation when using a starter significantly reduces the chance that bugs from an infection can get ripping before you yeast and funk up your batch.
 
The way I understand it with the starter is it does 4 major things.

1. Increases the starting population so theres less time used reproducing.

2. Increases the hardiness of the yeast, their cell walls and such are stronger when you have a starter on a stir plate from the constant agitation.

3. Removes carbon dioxide waste gases while the yeast are reproducing which makes for a healtier enviroment (prevent dwarf mutant yeast cells I think I read).

4. Increases sterol stores by pulling increased dissolved oxygen into the wort while the starter is going, sterols help the yeast reproduce, as well increases their vitality post fermentation so you can harvest the yeast for additional generations.

1,2, and 4 are all perfect (and I forgot about sterol stores thanks! They help the yeast build thicker cell walls which increases their alcohol tolerance)

3 I'm not so sure about. I've never seen anything about that. CO2 just bubbles out of starters the same way it does with beer, so I think that is more related to the fact that there's active gas exchange in starters allowing for oxygenation and sterol production.
 
Most people think that if you significantly underpitch there is a chance that yeast cant reproduce enough to fully ferment the wort. That and it stresses the yeast resulting in off-flavors. Also the quicker start of fermentation when using a starter significantly reduces the chance that bugs from an infection can get ripping before you yeast and funk up your batch.

I guess this is the part I don't really understand. How/Why would yeast just stop doing their job? (aside from something like abv got so high it kills them) Why would they be munching away then just stop before you hit your desired FG?
 
I guess this is the part I don't really understand. How/Why would yeast just stop doing their job? (aside from something like abv got so high it kills them) Why would they be munching away then just stop before you hit your desired FG?

Think in terms of numbers. 50 people moving a boulder vs 100 people. What group has better chances?

It' about giving the yeasties a better chance.
 
Isn't it more like 50 people trying to eat 1000 pies vs. 100 people trying to eat 100 pies? They'll both get there, but the 100 will get there faster?

But it sounds like there's a chance the 50 will give up and stop eating pie for no reason?

Now I want some pie.
 
I guess this is the part I don't really understand. How/Why would yeast just stop doing their job? (aside from something like abv got so high it kills them) Why would they be munching away then just stop before you hit your desired FG?

It's like people. They can only eat so much.

And then it has to do with yeast biology. Without checking a reference, I believe it's 6 multiplications that yeast will go through in one growth cycle (fermentation) under standard conditions (more under laboratory conditions, which you will not have brewing at home). In other words, 100 billion initial cells from a Wyeast smack pack or White Labs vial (~50-90 billion in reality if you factor in common viability loss due to age when you get it from the homebrew shop, my yeast is usually ~75% viable when I get it) will not equate to more than 600 billion cells (or 300-540 again assuming normal viability).

Now, for an average gravity batch, you'll probably still get enough yeast to attenuate fully pitching that way, it'll just get stressed in the process, and when stressed yeast are prone to throwing off things like excessive esters, fusel alcohols, excessive diacetyl and acedaldehyde (and other fermentation byproducts) or in some cases phenols too. In other words, off-flavors.

Once you start getting into higher gravity beers, or lagers, that's where you can run into the problem of not having enough yeast to fully ferment the batch without a starter.
 
I guess this is the part I don't really understand. How/Why would yeast just stop doing their job? (aside from something like abv got so high it kills them) Why would they be munching away then just stop before you hit your desired FG?

What you need to understand about yeast is that they have a collective soul. They communicate via chemical signals. They can have a large head of foam on top of what they are fermenting, then the whole thing disintegrates a few minutes later and comes back again a few minutes later. They communicate when the lag phase is approaching it's end and it's time to start eating sugar. They communicate on all sorts of issues; you have no idea.
 
What you need to understand about yeast is that they have a collective soul. They communicate via chemical signals. They can have a large head of foam on top of what they are fermenting, then the whole thing disintegrates a few minutes later and comes back again a few minutes later. They communicate when the lag phase is approaching it's end and it's time to start eating sugar. They communicate on all sorts of issues; you have no idea.

Really?
 
It's like people. They can only eat so much.

And then it has to do with yeast biology. Without checking a reference, I believe it's 6 multiplications that yeast will go through in one growth cycle (fermentation) under standard conditions (more under laboratory conditions, which you will not have brewing at home). In other words, 100 billion initial cells from a Wyeast smack pack or White Labs vial (~50-90 billion in reality if you factor in common viability loss due to age when you get it from the homebrew shop, my yeast is usually ~75% viable when I get it) will not equate to more than 600 billion cells (or 300-540 again assuming normal viability).

Now, for an average gravity batch, you'll probably still get enough yeast to attenuate fully pitching that way, it'll just get stressed in the process, and when stressed yeast are prone to throwing off things like excessive esters, fusel alcohols, excessive diacetyl and acedaldehyde (and other fermentation byproducts) or in some cases phenols too. In other words, off-flavors.

Once you start getting into higher gravity beers, or lagers, that's where you can run into the problem of not having enough yeast to fully ferment the batch without a starter.

Appreciate the explanation. If we only have 6x to work with, aren't we just taking the first 1 or 2 multiplications in the starter? Would a yeast created from a starter end up with a higher end count of yeast? Why?

I also don't understand why yeast would be less stressed when coming from a starter. It's basically the same environment (wort), does the aeration of a stirplate help them develop that quickly to this environment?

I'm really not trying to be obtuse, and I apologize if it's coming across this way, I'm just trying to better understand why I bother making starters.
 
Actually I would disagree that underpitching results in an incomplete fermentation. There's no reason it should. All pitch rates will eventually reach the same saturation level of cells/mL and the only difference should be the flavors created along the way. Longer time = more flavors and visa versa. An underpitched beer WILL stress the yeast, so if it's grossly underpitched it could result in the yeast simply dying. But underpitching by say 20%-50% should result in an equally complete fermentation as any other pitch rate.

http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/

This experiment seems to back this up, though I realize that it's only 1 data point.
 
Now I'm confused :confused:

Just thinking out loud here, maybe it's sort of like a race. You want to get a lot of yeast in there to eat up all the sugars before they create an inhospitable environment for themselves? Too little yeast count and their by-products will stall fermentation before they can reproduce enough and finish fermentation?
 
Appreciate the explanation. If we only have 6x to work with, aren't we just taking the first 1 or 2 multiplications in the starter? Would a yeast created from a starter end up with a higher end count of yeast? Why?

I also don't understand why yeast would be less stressed when coming from a starter. It's basically the same environment (wort), does the aeration of a stirplate help them develop that quickly to this environment?

I'm really not trying to be obtuse, and I apologize if it's coming across this way, I'm just trying to better understand why I bother making starters.

We don't have 6 generations, many breweries use 10th to 20th generation yeast before throwing it out and starting over. Yeast from a starter does indeed result in higher cell counts. Yeast will multiply until they reach saturation in the wort.

Yeast are less stressed when coming from a starter because there's more of them and yes they are adapted to the wort in the first few hours after pitching. They essentially don't have to work as hard to reach saturation so they reach anaerobic respiration (fermentation) more quickly.

http://www.pivarstvo.info/forum/files/yeast_propagation_and_maintenance_607.pdf

if you really want to understand yeast, read this, it has a few problems with it, but in general it's an excellent article for understanding the basics.
 
Appreciate the explanation. If we only have 6x to work with, aren't we just taking the first 1 or 2 multiplications in the starter? Would a yeast created from a starter end up with a higher end count of yeast? Why?

I also don't understand why yeast would be less stressed when coming from a starter. It's basically the same environment (wort), does the aeration of a stirplate help them develop that quickly to this environment?

I'm really not trying to be obtuse, and I apologize if it's coming across this way, I'm just trying to better understand why I bother making starters.

There's a number of factors into how much growth is obtained in a starter. Wort gravity, starter size, aeration, and initial pitch are the big ones. Generally less cells pitched into a larger, well aerated, higher gravity starter will equate to more. However, there's a tradeoff with starter gravity, as higher gravity equates to more stress on the yeast and less yeast health overall, but lower gravity less growth but easier on the yeast. Generally accepted is 1.030-1.040 for yeast propagation under normal circumstances, with higher gravity never being recommended, but lower gravity (down to 1.015 or so) useful for highly fragile yeast (say if you're culturing from a bottle of European beer that's old and been through who knows how much shipping abuse).

So generally if you want more cells, you increase the starer size and/or reduce the initial number of cells. Up to the point of that 6x multiplication factor- above that all you're doing is hurting your yeast.

As far as why yeast get stressed, imagine having a massive amount of work to do, and it's only you to do it. Now imagine you have the same workload, but someone else to help. Very much an analogy, but you get the idea. Point is, there's a difference with the pitching rates in a starter versus the pitching rates in a full batch, with the way the yeast behave. In a starter, the comparative pitching rate is much higher, and you're not concerned with the flavor of the starter, just the growth and health of the yeast.

I highly recomment picking up the book "Yeast: The Practical Guide to Fermentation" by Chris White (of White Labs) and Jamil Zainasheff (of Brew Strong, the Mr. Malty yeast pitching rate calculator, a pro brewer, and one of the most award winning homebrewers of all time). It will answer all these questions better than I ever could.

Actually I would disagree that underpitching results in an incomplete fermentation. There's no reason it should. All pitch rates will eventually reach the same saturation level of cells/mL and the only difference should be the flavors created along the way. Longer time = more flavors and visa versa. An underpitched beer WILL stress the yeast, so if it's grossly underpitched it could result in the yeast simply dying. But underpitching by say 20%-50% should result in an equally complete fermentation as any other pitch rate.

http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/

This experiment seems to back this up, though I realize that it's only 1 data point.

As far as this, I routinely underpitch (slightly) with Belgian strains to bring out the esters, and with yeast-forward beers overpitching is known to be detrimental. I'd be curious to see the same experiment done with a lager, better yet a high gravity lager like a Doppelbock, and I would expect very much different results.
 
As far as this, I routinely underpitch (slightly) with Belgian strains to bring out the esters, and with yeast-forward beers overpitching is known to be detrimental. I'd be curious to see the same experiment done with a lager, better yet a high gravity lager like a Doppelbock, and I would expect very much different results.

I'm not sure. Given the reasoning provided in that experiment, the lower pitch rate basically forces the entire yeast population to be replaced by their own daughter cells. As yeast reproduce they become better attuned to their environment with each successive generation. So underpitching might actually have a more pronounced effect on lowering the FG of a high gravity beer because the higher relative percentage of new yeast cells are more alcohol tolerant.

I would be very curious to see that too!
 
Seems there's a misunderstanding- you can go well more than 6 generations of yeast. You just won't get more than 6 multiplications in one growth cycle. It has to do with the physiology and how many times a given yeast cell can actually bud. That means you can get 6x in a starter, and another 6x in the main batch (because the new yeast from the starter is able to bud in addition to the old yeast). And then another 6x if you repitch. And so forth. You can go as many cycles as you want (although I prefer to stop at 5, I see too much change over time).
 
1,2, and 4 are all perfect (and I forgot about sterol stores thanks! They help the yeast build thicker cell walls which increases their alcohol tolerance)

3 I'm not so sure about. I've never seen anything about that. CO2 just bubbles out of starters the same way it does with beer, so I think that is more related to the fact that there's active gas exchange in starters allowing for oxygenation and sterol production.

Ah, I think I read 3 when reading about de-gasing wine. The CO2 is poisonous to yeast and when you have wine aging for an extended period of time you don't want any mutated yeast cells. We don't degas beer due to risk of oxidation (wine you can throw campden in for protection), but when you have a stir plate going it helps to degas the CO2 which makes it a more friendly enviroment for the yeast.

(theres actually a lot of CO2 that goes into solution during the course of a starter, I don't have a stir plate but shake my starters by hand every 30-60 minutes when I am awake, they foam up a ton each time which wouldn't happen if the CO2 just bubbled straight out of solution)
 
Ah, I think I read 3 when reading about de-gasing wine. The CO2 is poisonous to yeast and when you have wine aging for an extended period of time you don't want any mutated yeast cells. We don't degas beer due to risk of oxidation (wine you can throw campden in for protection), but when you have a stir plate going it helps to degas the CO2 which makes it a more friendly enviroment for the yeast.

(theres actually a lot of CO2 that goes into solution during the course of a starter, I don't have a stir plate but shake my starters by hand every 30-60 minutes when I am awake, they foam up a ton each time which wouldn't happen if the CO2 just bubbled straight out of solution)

Hmmm I've never thought about the CO2 before. The purpose of a stir plate is more to increase dissolved oxygen in the starters from what I understand, but it makes sense that removing the CO2 from solution has a benefit as well.

The concentrations of cells/mL in a stir plate starter can be as much as 4 times higher than a shaken starter with 100% viability and thats usually just attributed to the unlimited oxygen supply from the vortex sucking air down into the liquid.

It would be pretty easy to test the benefit of CO2 removal. Just use an airlock on a stirplate starter and compare it to a control non-stirred starter and see what the difference in cell count and viability is. I doubt any of us have the means or equipment to do this, but it would be interesting to see!
 
Hmmm I've never thought about the CO2 before. The purpose of a stir plate is more to increase dissolved oxygen in the starters from what I understand, but it makes sense that removing the CO2 from solution has a benefit as well.

The concentrations of cells/mL in a stir plate starter can be as much as 4 times higher than a shaken starter with 100% viability and thats usually just attributed to the unlimited oxygen supply from the vortex sucking air down into the liquid.

It would be pretty easy to test the benefit of CO2 removal. Just use an airlock on a stirplate starter and compare it to a control non-stirred starter and see what the difference in cell count and viability is. I doubt any of us have the means or equipment to do this, but it would be interesting to see!

Braukaiser has done some experiments like that. Don't know if he's done that exact one. But I know airlock vs. foil vs. uncovered vs. injected air (all on a stir plate) was one he did.
 

Really.

Another thing you might not know about yeast is that some of it is hallucinogenic. I drank about half a litre of wine by drawing from the spigot of my fermenter while the wine was still going and I had absolutely bizarre dreams afterwards. On other occasions, with beer that wasn't finished yet, I experienced the same thing. I'm not talking about the now and then kind of strange dream, I'm talking about "welcome to the machine" kind of dreams where the entire universe is wobbling.

Those were different strains of yeast, so the real thing might just be the consumption of a sufficient amount of active yeast.
 
Really.

Another thing you might not know about yeast is that some of it is hallucinogenic. I drank about half a litre of wine by drawing from the spigot of my fermenter while the wine was still going and I had absolutely bizarre dreams afterwards. On other occasions, with beer that wasn't finished yet, I experienced the same thing. I'm not talking about the now and then kind of strange dream, I'm talking about "welcome to the machine" kind of dreams where the entire universe is wobbling.

Those were different strains of yeast, so the real thing might just be the consumption of a sufficient amount of active yeast.

Could also be that you drank a half liter of wine...

Just saying :mug:
 
Could also be that you drank a half liter of wine...

Just saying :mug:

That quantity, in itself, is really nothing for me - just a normal day. I can drink about 2 litres of wine before starting to suffer from heavy intoxication.

This is not like all peer reviewed and stuff, but if you have time and interest then check out this article. It talks about the link between fungus and autism. Additionally, people who are genetically variant and possess the autism gene while never having developed full-blown autism may very well experience the same "leaky gut syndrome".

http://www.healing-arts.org/children/antifungal.htm
 
That quantity, in itself, is really nothing for me - just a normal day. I can drink about 2 litres of wine before starting to suffer from heavy intoxication.

This is not like all peer reviewed and stuff, but if you have time and interest then check out this article. It talks about the link between fungus and autism. Additionally, people who are genetically variant and possess the autism gene while never having developed full-blown autism may very well experience the same "leaky gut syndrome".

http://www.healing-arts.org/children/antifungal.htm

I'm just being a smartass. 500ml of ~14% wine is less alcohol than a 750ml of 10-12% Barleywine/RIS/Imperial IPA, which I'm sure most of us have drank from time to time. I know I have without hallucinating.

As far as the link, no comment on that one. Hah. ;)
 
Really good info here, thanks all!

TheMadKing, I've bookmarked those sites to read later.
Qhrumphf, Got the book in my amazon cart!

Honestly, I'm still not sure what the difference is, but have some resources to dig into, so I'm calling that a win :)
 
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