Using not quite ripe berries for a sour

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Thanks_Yeasties

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Its blackberry season in MI and Im staining my fingers picking a lot of fresh ripe blackberries. I had a hankering to use them in a beer, maybe a blackberry black ipa, but then thought maybe i would freeze a few lbs and put them in a sour brew (grand cru inspired recipe sitting on some roselare blend) Ive been aging for 6 months or so.

I know people use tart cherries to add some tartness to their sour so I considered maybe using slightly under ripe blackberries (red/pink instead of black) to add some tartness and flavor to this sour.

My questions - are the tart cherries people use actually ripe cherries that just aren't sweet (like crab apples)? Will using not ripe blackberries have any adverse effects/add any off flavors, possibly from being a slightly different chemistry as they won't be ripe? Anyone have any experience in this?

Im all for experimenting but when it comes to messing up something ive waited so patiently for Id rather be safe.
 
Its blackberry season in MI and Im staining my fingers picking a lot of fresh ripe blackberries. I had a hankering to use them in a beer, maybe a blackberry black ipa, but then thought maybe i would freeze a few lbs and put them in a sour brew (grand cru inspired recipe sitting on some roselare blend) Ive been aging for 6 months or so.

I know people use tart cherries to add some tartness to their sour so I considered maybe using slightly under ripe blackberries (red/pink instead of black) to add some tartness and flavor to this sour.

My questions - are the tart cherries people use actually ripe cherries that just aren't sweet (like crab apples)? Will using not ripe blackberries have any adverse effects/add any off flavors, possibly from being a slightly different chemistry as they won't be ripe? Anyone have any experience in this?

Im all for experimenting but when it comes to messy up something ive waited so patiently for Id rather be safe.

The tart cherries are a breed, montmocercy is a common one. The Belgians use a shirierbeek cherries. My spellings are way off, but you get the idea.
 
I don't think you want to use unripe berries, simply because they don't taste good. Blackberries and raspberries actually have a lot of acid in them, so when the yeast eats up all the sugar you'll be left with a lot of additional acidity. Blackberries have a lot of malic acid, which can be a little harsh, but I believe some brett strains can convert it to lactic acid, so they're a great addition to a sour!
 
I don't think you want to use unripe berries, simply because they don't taste good. Blackberries and raspberries actually have a lot of acid in them, so when the yeast eats up all the sugar you'll be left with a lot of additional acidity. Blackberries have a lot of malic acid, which can be a little harsh, but I believe some brett strains can convert it to lactic acid, so they're a great addition to a sour!

Not so much unripe but not quite ripe so they aren't all sweet. I enjoy them just as their turning black as they have a bit of tart left in them. Are you saying even if they are ripe, once the sugars are fermented out they will add additional acidity to the brew from the malic acid? Would there be more malic acid is not fully ripe as opposed to fully ripe berries?
 
Yep! Think of it as the sugar masking the tartness. Take away the sugar, and what you have left is lots of tartness.

There's probably some data out there about acid levels dropping as fruit ripens, but there's still lots of acidity in ripe berries. If you make wine from ripe berries, you usually have to add water to dilute the acidity.
 
Yep! Think of it as the sugar masking the tartness. Take away the sugar, and what you have left is lots of tartness.

There's probably some data out there about acid levels dropping as fruit ripens, but there's still lots of acidity in ripe berries. If you make wine from ripe berries, you usually have to add water to dilute the acidity.

So my next problem may be not having enough lbs to add to the brew, I wonder if subbing a lil bit of not so ripe would go a long way in adding the tartness, along with adding as many ripe blackberries as I can keep myself from eating. ha.
 
add some now, add some in 2 weeks as they ripen. beer is probably gonna sit on the fruit a couple months anyway right?
 
add some now, add some in 2 weeks as they ripen. beer is probably gonna sit on the fruit a couple months anyway right?

Very possible, I guess I was more wondering if fruit contained anything before ripening that would be detrimental to the brew?

And if it was possible to get some extra tartness from adding less than ripe berries?
 
I think a good way to think about it is that it is unlikely that the fruit is going to lose much if any any acid as it ripens. I would expect acids to be produced as it ripens. It may taste less sour due the natural sugar development (ripening).

As far as being detrimental...I think a lot fruit is picked very under-ripe anyway and allowed to ripen while it is shipped to the destination market. So in general I think you could add the under-ripe fruit with low risk of any issues. The only issue I can think of there would be odd flavors. Do the under-ripe berries taste good other than the lack of sugar?
 
I wouldn't use underripe fruit in a beer. You wouldn't use underripe fruit in wine either. If you wanted to do a side by side, I'd maybe go with a gallon on underripe, and a gallon on fully ripe to compare, but I absolutely would not use underripe fruit in the whole batch, especially after waiting 6 months.
 
Makes sense there isn't much a difference in acid content, just the ripening adds more sugar to balance against the tartness in them. Other than not being sweet, they are good just before being ripe. I think that's personal preference though, like when is a banana best to eat.

I definitely don't want to ruin a brew but being its a sour and I am not looking to get a lot of sweetness or even heavy blackberry flavor I thought it could be an interesting addition to give it some extra tartness. I know Avery did a sour that they added a ton of crab apples to and it was pretty good. I do have enough to do some split batch comparisons and have been trying to figure out what/if/how to divvy it up so Ill keep all this is mind, thanks for the discussions folks.

Hell at this point I could be sitting on this damn sour until next berry season... that was the most depressing thing Ive wrote in a while... :(
 
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