Help please! My panel buzzes and I have no power.

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I just finished wiring my electric brewery. I added a safe start relay just for the added safety. The safe start relay prevents powering up the system if either the pump switches are on or the heater select switch is not in off. That prevents running the pumps dry or turning on a heater before it is submerged in water. So the problem is the safe start relay chatters when I turn the key switch to on and the power on relay does not allow power to go anywhere in the panel. Anybody have any thoughts on what I need to check?
 
I just finished wiring my electric brewery. I added a safe start relay just for the added safety. The safe start relay prevents powering up the system if either the pump switches are on or the heater select switch is not in off. That prevents running the pumps dry or turning on a heater before it is submerged in water. So the problem is the safe start relay chatters when I turn the key switch to on and the power on relay does not allow power to go anywhere in the panel. Anybody have any thoughts on what I need to check?

wiring? cant help more since I have no idea what your wiring diagram looks like or how its wired....
 
I don't mean to sound insulting or anything, just checking, but are you running AC into a DC relay? that would certainly cause chatter, and have you checked that you have sufficient voltage to the relay with a meter? insufficient voltage won't fully activate the solenoid and can cause chatter too.
 
+1 on AC into a DC relay. I made that error when building my panel and it buzzed like crazy.
 
Check that the voltage being applied to the coil is correct. Failure of the relay to pick up suggests 24 V or 110 V being applied to a device that requires 240 or 24 to a device that requires 120. If that checks then the 'logic' in you wiring may be the problem and we'd need to see how you hooked things up.
 
I just finished wiring my electric brewery. I added a safe start relay just for the added safety. The safe start relay prevents powering up the system if either the pump switches are on or the heater select switch is not in off. That prevents running the pumps dry or turning on a heater before it is submerged in water. So the problem is the safe start relay chatters when I turn the key switch to on and the power on relay does not allow power to go anywhere in the panel. Anybody have any thoughts on what I need to check?

Not to be the "well actually" guy but your safe start interlock does not prevent you from running pumps dry or turning on an element before it is submerged in water. It only prevents you from turning your system on with any of those switches in the on position. After the panel is on it is entirely possible to dry fire an element.

I'd go out on a limb and guess that most accidentally dry fired elements are switched to on after the main panel is powered up. Like when you're trying to turn on the HLT but flip the switch for the BK instead.

Pretty easy to remind yourself to make sure all switches are in the off position before turning the panel on. Just my humble opinion.

And with the pumps, they don't burn up in a matter of seconds. You have plenty of time to catch that and turn them off before doing any damage.
 
Not to be the "well actually" guy but your safe start interlock does not prevent you from running pumps dry or turning on an element before it is submerged in water. It only prevents you from turning your system on with any of those switches in the on position. After the panel is on it is entirely possible to dry fire an element.

I'd go out on a limb and guess that most accidentally dry fired elements are switched to on after the main panel is powered up. Like when you're trying to turn on the HLT but flip the switch for the BK instead.

Pretty easy to remind yourself to make sure all switches are in the off position before turning the panel on. Just my humble opinion.

And with the pumps, they don't burn up in a matter of seconds. You have plenty of time to catch that and turn them off before doing any damage.

+1 this is why I never thought a safe start lockout is of any use. It gives a false sense of safety that only solves these problems at the very beginning of the brew day. You still have 4+ hours of the brew day where these issues can occur.

If you want to prevent dry firing of your elements a float switch in series from your PID output to the SSR input us the only way to go in my mind. This will protect dry firing any time the element isn't submerged.

As for protecting the pumps, I haven't seen a solution for that problem yet. Theoretically you could use a flow meter that fed into a microcontroller and if you aren't seeing anything going through the flow meter it will turn the pump off. Problem is finding a cheap flow meter that is food grade and can handle high Temps.

And in my experience Gameface is correct that all the times I have dry fired and element were in the middle of brew day, never at the very beginning when I turn the panel on. BTW I have never ruined an element from dry firing it.
 
+1 this is why I never thought a safe start lockout is of any use. It gives a false sense of safety that only solves these problems at the very beginning of the brew day. You still have 4+ hours of the brew day where these issues can occur.

If you want to prevent dry firing of your elements a float switch in series from your PID output to the SSR input us the only way to go in my mind. This will protect dry firing any time the element isn't submerged.

As for protecting the pumps, I haven't seen a solution for that problem yet. Theoretically you could use a flow meter that fed into a microcontroller and if you aren't seeing anything going through the flow meter it will turn the pump off. Problem is finding a cheap flow meter that is food grade and can handle high Temps.

And in my experience Gameface is correct that all the times I have dry fired and element were in the middle of brew day, never at the very beginning when I turn the panel on. BTW I have never ruined an element from dry firing it.

Pressure transducer on the outlet of the pump would work too and might be cheaper
 
Pressure transducer on the outlet of the pump would work too and might be cheaper

You could also use a flow switch similar to this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MJVMUCO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 in the pump outlet plumbing. In either case you probably also need a time delay relay operated in interval mode (closes when control signal applied and opens at end of set interval) in parallel with the pressure or flow switch. Otherwise you can't turn the pump on because the pressure/flow switch is open when the pump is off.

Brew on :mug:
 
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I bet you mixed up some NC and NO contacts on the relay. It is a self latching relay circuit. If you mix up Normally Closed and Normally Open contacts, the relay will start off as on, energize the coil, make a switch which opens some contacts. The relay shuts it self down, which returns it to start up @ On and goes through the cycle.

Double check you have the wires on the correct socket number, per the diagram.

Outside chance: Compare the pin numbers as printed on the relay. I do not know how uniform pin assignments are among octal socket relay manufactures.
 
Not to be the "well actually" guy but your safe start interlock does not prevent you from running pumps dry or turning on an element before it is submerged in water. It only prevents you from turning your system on with any of those switches in the on position. After the panel is on it is entirely possible to dry fire an element.

I'd go out on a limb and guess that most accidentally dry fired elements are switched to on after the main panel is powered up. Like when you're trying to turn on the HLT but flip the switch for the BK instead.

Pretty easy to remind yourself to make sure all switches are in the off position before turning the panel on. Just my humble opinion.

And with the pumps, they don't burn up in a matter of seconds. You have plenty of time to catch that and turn them off before doing any damage.

float and flow switches do a good job of preventing this too.. thats what I added after a dry firing incident.
 
You could also use a flow switch similar .... you probably also need a time delay relay operated in interval mode (closes when control signal applied and opens at end of set interval) in parallel with the pressure or flow switch.

This is going well beyond what is justified. I've run these pumps dry for half an hour or more (forget to open the valve and go off for lunch) without apparent damage (at least none is apparent yet).
 
I bet you mixed up some NC and NO contacts on the relay. It is a self latching relay circuit. If you mix up Normally Closed and Normally Open contacts, the relay will start off as on, energize the coil, make a switch which opens some contacts. The relay shuts it self down, which returns it to start up @ On and goes through the cycle.



Double check you have the wires on the correct socket number, per the diagram.



Outside chance: Compare the pin numbers as printed on the relay. I do not know how uniform pin assignments are among octal socket relay manufactures.


That's my bet too.

-BD
 
This is going well beyond what is justified. I've run these pumps dry for half an hour or more (forget to open the valve and go off for lunch) without apparent damage (at least none is apparent yet).

Not to mention all the times I've tried to get a pump to prime and it's being a PITA. Yeah, you run it dry all the time for extended periods of time and you'll certainly shorten its lifespan, but they don't burn up from a few seconds, or even minutes of running dry.

I haven't dry fired an element (knock on wood) yet, but I'm far more concerned with that than running a pump dry.
 
This is going well beyond what is justified. I've run these pumps dry for half an hour or more (forget to open the valve and go off for lunch) without apparent damage (at least none is apparent yet).

Good to know. I wasn't advocating the necessity of preventing a pump running dry, just geeking out about how to get around the chicken/egg problem of a flow or pressure switch needing to be closed for the pump to run. A flow or pressure interlock would be a good idea for a RIMS heater circuit, but that doesn't require a time delay relay in order to work.

Brew on :mug:
 
I'm such an idiot. I appreciate all the responses. I ordered the relay that was recommended. I installed it without looking at it. Surely it couldn't be a DC relay..........well expletive. It was a DC relay. I bypassed it and repowered just fine. Now I'm trying to figure out how to get the PIDs to alarm on a high temperature. The PID ALM1 is set for 160 degrees and it stays in alarm even in ambient conditions.
 
I'm such an idiot. I appreciate all the responses. I ordered the relay that was recommended. I installed it without looking at it. Surely it couldn't be a DC relay..........well expletive. It was a DC relay. I bypassed it and repowered just fine. Now I'm trying to figure out how to get the PIDs to alarm on a high temperature. The PID ALM1 is set for 160 degrees and it stays in alarm even in ambient conditions.

Not sure what type of pid your using but the mypins have an alarm hi and alarm low setting.
 
Don't withdraw the comment. It was useful information about what doesn't need interlocks.

I was just trying to make clear that I don't want to stifle experimentation/thought for the sake of better understanding, over engineering or a little bling in your system. As we speak I am happily over engineering the electrics for the garage/boat shed project we are doing this summer and enjoying it immensely.
 
I have an issue with my electric brewery and it's obviously in the wiring. The system stays in alarm. I've gone over the wiring several times and found a few issues but my PIDs stay in alarm so I'm hoping for some help from the experts out there. This is my PID for my HLT. My Boil and Mash PIDs are wired the same except the Mash PID has no SSR control. Terminals 3 & 4 are not used.
The AL1 is set to 150 degrees and is alarming at ambient temperature. Anyone have any ideas which wire needs removed or changed? This is a MyPin TA4.
Thank you in advance for you time and responses.

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