saison with wyeast 3711

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IRonMc

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I am planning a saison using:
40% pale 2-row
25% munich
20% wheat malt
5% flaked rye
10% demera sugar
(Above because that is what I have on hand)

Hops ????
Adjuncts???

My brew room is sitting in the high 70's right now, judging by other posts this seems Ok for yeast? Any tips on other ingredients, brew day or fermentation?
:mug:
 
I use Belle Sasion yeast which by all accounts is the dried version of 3711. I had made many sasions with it and all have turned out well, some amazingly so. It is a little on the cleaner side of sasion yeast but the beer it makes is still very identifiable as a sasion. Here's what I've done and it seems to work for me. Pitch low! I'm talking 65F at the highest. Then, let it free rise as high as it wants to go. If you pitch even in the low 70's it will have this hint of an uncoated asprin flavor (some kind of fusel I guess) that will fade but will take a long time to do so.

That being said this is quickly becoming one of my favorite yeasts. It doesn't need temp control, its incredibly reliable and attenuates like a mofo. I'm talking well over 90%!!
 
I use Belle Sasion yeast which by all accounts is the dried version of 3711.
First time I heard that but from my experiences, your should reallt treat these two as different yeasts. BS has a much more prevasive presence, which, on its own, is nothing like saison unless you're willing to let it mellow out for quite a few months and maybe combine it with fruit. 3711 is your go-to saison yeast if you want a Dupont-like presence but can't be bothered with babysitting Belgian Saison 3724.


Pitch low! I'm talking 65F at the highest. Then, let it free rise as high as it wants to go. If you pitch even in the low 70's it will have this hint of an uncoated asprin flavor (some kind of fusel I guess) that will fade but will take a long time to do so.
Noted. When I use BS next time, I'll pitch low and see if it behaves more like a saison then.


IRonMc: your choices will depend on your goals, I suppose.
You want a hoppy farmhouse ale? Use Citra. Saison loves Citra.
You want a rustic saison? Saaz will do just fine. Toss in some pepper corns if you like. Saison loves pepper.
You want to go all out kitchen sink weird on this? Grab some spices you like. Saison loves spices. Fennel seeds would be awesome.

Really, there so much you can do with/to saison and it will turn out great most of the time.
Set a goal, and go from there.
 
Thanks for the replys, I like the peppery saison a friend suggested seeds of paradise and herkules hop anyone ever tried these? Never thought of fennel sounds interesting?
 
Thanks for the replys, I like the peppery saison a friend suggested seeds of paradise and herkules hop anyone ever tried these? Never thought of fennel sounds interesting?

While my own track record speaks volumes against the below, I advise keeping spice doses low. You'll want a hint of spices, not a spiced/mulled beer ;)
 
First time I heard that but from my experiences, your should reallt treat these two as different yeasts. BS has a much more prevasive presence, which, on its own, is nothing like saison unless you're willing to let it mellow out for quite a few months and maybe combine it with fruit.

That's odd. Maybe you got a bad pack or something got messed up with temps or pitch rates. Did you rehydrate? Did you use one pack or two?

I have made quite a few sasions with it and my friend, who is considered one of the sasion gurus of Knoxville, loves it. We have made everything from tradional, to hoppy, to spiced sasions and all have turned out well, were very indefinably sasiony and some have gotten rave reviews. The other thing that's odd about your results is the only complaint I have heard from this yeast is that it can be slighty muted sometimes. Never heard of the prevasive influence of which you describe.

Not trying to be contentious here. I'm just trying to figure out why we have had exact opposite experiences.
 
I seem to be somewhat alone in my experiences with BS, so I'm willing to chalk it up to "it's just me". ;)

I've brewed maybe two or three beers with this yeast. One was a SMaSH with Summer hops which tasted like raw BelleSaison for quite a long time. With age, it came to taste more abbey-eque. Decidedly un-saisony though.
Another was a more classic saison which I ended up lagering on quite a large amount of quince and membrillo. Took over three months for the BelleSaison vibe to clear up an leave any room for the (heady) quince presence.

I'm not saying it's a bad yeast, but I'm definitely not getting the typical saison vibe out of it. In my experience, it's a yeast which needs a sparring partner with some clout, lest it completely whoopass your brew.

I rehydrated in all cases, using a single pack for a 4.5 gal brew. Fermented at room temp with no temp control, the way I imagine a proper saison yeast should perform at its peak.

Bearing all that in mind, I'm not the greatest fan of BS. I'm starting to like what it does to fruit-boosted farmhouse ales, but as a saison yeast, I'm not convinced.
 
Settled on the following recipe:

35% pale 2-row
35% Munich
16% Wheat
13% Flaked Rye
1% Roasted Wheat (for some colour)
1 tsp of gypsum

30 min protein rest 145 deg.
60 min sacs rest 156-154 deg.

13 IBU herkules first wort
9 IBU herkules 10 min
3 IBU herkules steep 5 min

Couldn't decide how to do it so I brewed a 10 gal batch. Pitched half (5gal) with just the Wyeast 3711 and half with some US-05. Added 1g grains of paradise and 2oz bitter orange peel to the US-05 batch fermenter. Pitched both as cold as I could about 63 deg, temp rose to about 75 over a day or two and seem to be staying there? Both started fermenting like beasts overnight! Will post a taste off once it's done.
 
I use Belle Sasion yeast which by all accounts is the dried version of 3711.

For some reason this keeps popping up, but I have used both a lot and they are definitely not the same yeast. Granted they do act similar and will ferment anything down to near zero, but the flavor is totally different.

I have brewed almost 50 saisons. Almost equally split between 3711, Belle Saison and .3724. They all work but there is no way that Belle Saison and 3711 are the same yeast.
 
Its been a while since I used Belle Saison. Not since I started using liquid yeasts. I can't really remember the flavor profile of it, but I do like 3711. How does the taste compare? I like makign yeast blends for saisons and maybe I'll start using some belle too
 
I have brewed almost 50 saisons. Almost equally split between 3711, Belle Saison and .3724.

Do you have to babysit 3724 as others say, or just leave it 4-6 weeks to complete? I want to try it but not if its going to be finicky and freeze up on me. My go-to strain is 3711 currently.
 
Do you have to babysit 3724 as others say, or just leave it 4-6 weeks to complete? I want to try it but not if its going to be finicky and freeze up on me. My go-to strain is 3711 currently.

You do not have to really babysit it. You just have to start it out lower and then begin ramping up the temp. If you do that you will be fine. I have never had any problem getting it to finish low. I use a cooler and an aquarium heater to control the temps. I pitch in the mid to high 60's, let it go for a day or two and then begin ramping up the temperature. Usually a few degrees in the morning and then a few degrees in the evening until I get to 90. Works like a charm.

It really produces a great saison.
 
i supervise my saison yeasts even less than that. I pitch it at normal temps. Usually come home from work the next day, see its bubbling and just crank it straight past 90F. I leave it there until day 10 or so before letting it come back down for bottling a week later. Ive never gotten any bad flavors from it
 
So here comes a dumb question. Isn't 3711 max temp range up around 77 or something like that, if you push it higher than that do you run the risk of fusels. I actually think I have fusels in my saison. I used 3711 and interestingly never went above 74. I may have underpitched so perhaps that's where I screwed up. I don't believe I underaerated so everything else seemed on point so who knows.

I would have thought fusels were hard to develop with this yeast so figuring out where I went wrong is puzzling. Anyhow didn't mean to steal this thread, but I was unsure about pushing the temps with this strain and had not brewed a saison prior.
 
BTW IronMC, I did a nontraditional saison. I went with a similar grain bill (no munich though) but added a touch of honey malt and racked over strawberries. I bittered with magnum plus late additions with amarillo and dry hopped with Nelson and amarillo.
 
So here comes a dumb question. Isn't 3711 max temp range up around 77 or something like that, if you push it higher than that do you run the risk of fusels. I actually think I have fusels in my saison. I used 3711 and interestingly never went above 74. I may have underpitched so perhaps that's where I screwed up. I don't believe I underaerated so everything else seemed on point so who knows.

I would have thought fusels were hard to develop with this yeast so figuring out where I went wrong is puzzling. Anyhow didn't mean to steal this thread, but I was unsure about pushing the temps with this strain and had not brewed a saison prior.

Yeah, dont pay attention to max temps on saison strains. I've push 3711, 3724, 3726, wlp566, wlp670, RVA-263, omega yeast saisonstein, and belle saison all past 90F and I havent got any bad fusel flavors. I always get my saisons veyr warm because it brings out the most yeast character. The saison yeast flavors is why im bothering to make it in the first place
 
Bottled this weekend. Both brewed down dry, US-05 finished at about 1.007, Wyeast 3711 went down to just below 1.005. Two are more similar than I expected but a I think I see a winner at this point. US-05 with grains of paradise and bitter orange peals tastes like peppery orange juice, leaves a burning sensation on the tongue! Really pretty tasty and great for some hot weather, but not sure I'd know it was a beer if I hadn't brewed it and maybe a bit thin? Wy 3711 seems to have a wider pallette of spice pepper is definitly there, but more to it, hint of cinnamon maybe? Still lots of citrus but some tropical fruit in there too, mango? Melons? Definitely more to it even though it, finished drier it tastes like a bigger beer. Can't wait for both to mature and carbonate! Its one of the best I've done already! How long do I need to wait? I know Saison is supposed to sit for a while but I think I'll have a hard time waiting?
 
It's already been said, but no, 3711 and Belle Saison are NOT the same yeast, and neither are REMOTELY comparable to 3724/565 (aka Dupont yeast).

Seriously, split wort three ways and try em side by side. They are all entirely different.

The way I look at it, Belle Saison and 3711 will never provide the flavor that I'm looking for in a Saison. 3711 is bland and boring, and Belle Saison I just don't like. However they're both workhorses. So I pitch a strain I DO like (3724) and should that happen to crap out on me (which it doesn't, I start cool and ramp up as has been said), and then if it DOES crap out, then I use 3711 to dry it out after I've gotten the flavor I want from the 3724.
 
It's already been said, but no, 3711 and Belle Saison are NOT the same yeast, and neither are REMOTELY comparable to 3724/565 (aka Dupont yeast).
+1

3711 is bland and boring
Bland? Boring? So far, it's my favourite saison yeast, precisely because it is neither bland, boring nor fickle and finnicky. Pairs well with a spices, herbs and a myriad of fruits without losing its yeasty qualities.

Mind, I've not used the Dupont strain yet so maybe my frame of reference is different from yours.

and Belle Saison I just don't like.
Took me a while but I kinda like how it pairs with rich fruits. Peaches, quince, that kind of stuff. Anything more subtle it will completely overpower.
 
Bland? Boring? So far, it's my favourite saison yeast, precisely because it is neither bland, boring nor fickle and finnicky. Pairs well with a spices, herbs and a myriad of fruits without losing its yeasty qualities.

Mind, I've not used the Dupont strain yet so maybe my frame of reference is different from yours.

Obviously my own subjective opinion. And bland is meant within the context of Saison strains. And fickle and finicky it is not. Low maintenance workhorse. I just much prefer the character of other strains. Saison has always been a predominantly mixed strain beer, and historically the missing link between Belgian beers in general, and the truly wild character of sours (and historically sour was prized, although no longer entirely appropriate, but still present sometimes, such as Fantome). If my memory serves me correctly even the Wyeast/White Labs Dupont yeast versions are pure culture isolate approximations when as far as I'm aware actual Dupont has multiple strains (although no Brett as many believe).
 
+1


Bland? Boring? So far, it's my favourite saison yeast, precisely because it is neither bland, boring nor fickle and finnicky. Pairs well with a spices, herbs and a myriad of fruits without losing its yeasty qualities.

Mind, I've not used the Dupont strain yet so maybe my frame of reference is different from yours.


Took me a while but I kinda like how it pairs with rich fruits. Peaches, quince, that kind of stuff. Anything more subtle it will completely overpower.

Have you tried 3711 with raspberries? I've decided to try this with my next saison. Unsure of an appropriate fruit ratio due to strong raspberry flavor... thinking 0.5 lb per gallon (grain bill: 2 Row, munich, oats).
 
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