I brewed a hefe about 3 months ago. On bottling day i left a few inches of beer on the yeast cake. It was in the fridge for about a month, and now it's been out for about 2 months, the ambient temp is around 16 celcius or 61 Fahrenheit. Can i use this yeast for a beer this weekend?
How long would a yeast cake remain viable?
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I would think you could harvest it no problems if the carboy has been kept in decent conditions temperature wise.
It really only differs from storing yeast in mason jars under beer in scale. That's what I do to harvest from the FV. Pour into mason jars and lightly close. Place in fridge.
If the yeast is sitting under a protective blanket of beer it should be fine. I'm guessing the carboy is sealed with a bung or airlock or both.
Perhaps I am wrong and unaware of the potential pitfalls in what you describe.
Mason Jar or Carboy. Is it the same as far as the yeast are concerned.
It really only differs from storing yeast in mason jars under beer in scale. That's what I do to harvest from the FV. Pour into mason jars and lightly close. Place in fridge.
If the yeast is sitting under a protective blanket of beer it should be fine. I'm guessing the carboy is sealed with a bung or airlock or both.
Perhaps I am wrong and unaware of the potential pitfalls in what you describe.
Mason Jar or Carboy. Is it the same as far as the yeast are concerned.
My main concern is with autolysis ( i think that's the word I'm looking for) basically im worried perhaps some yeast have died and I would hate to ruin a fresh batch of beer. Or wort. But it sounds to me like I am good to go. Finally got a mini fridge, so i can start storing and building up my yeast supply. This yeast for exaple is wyeast 3068. It really gives my hefe a banana hit. The carboy indeed has an airlock on it. Thanks for the advise! I'm hoping to pitch some and save some. This will be a lot better than the two hour round trip for that ueast each time.
The same sort of....my fear is that the carboy is 99% air and hasn't been refrigerated for the past two months. A mason jar would be 99% beer / yeast and properly stored cold.
I would guess a yeast cake left for 2 months in an empty carboy could get a bit natty, IDK. Perhaps try and culture a starter. This seems like yeast cake abuse to me, but I'm no biologist
Limiting O2 and storing cold are a good idea, neither was done in this example. I'm both cheap and liberal when it comes to yeast reuse, but I would draw the line...
How does the beer / yeast cake taste and smell, of course it has to pass that test?
FWIW Sierra Nevada offers a kellerviess hef beer with live yeast culture in the bottles, you could buy a 6 pack and get some fresh yeast for free. You would step the starter a couple times but it's a fun little project if you have the time.
The same sort of.... This seems like yeast cake abuse to me, but I'm no biologist
When you put it that way, I guess you are right. hadn't thought about the airspace and the refrigeration.
Rather than simply reuse what you have, I would take the time to make a new starter from the leftover cake. I doubt it'd ruin your beer to pour fresh wort onto the cake, but I also doubt it would yield the best possible results for that batch. Happy brewing!
Lennie
Well-Known Member
Just throw out a data point, I pitched a generous amount of 1 year old yeast cake onto an ESB several days ago. It took 48hrs to start but is fermenting nicely now and smells great. I hadn't realized I didn't have a British ale yeast on hand when I brewed, and since I'm not short of beer I decided to give it a shot.
As with a lot of things round here, opinions vary. While some wont repitch a slurry, others repitch a year old slurry....follow your heart, taste buds , and nose, perhaps not in that order.
Imagine taking a bottle conditioned beer and pouring out all but an ounce, then capping it and storing in the refrigerator for a month, then take it out of the fridge and leave it set on the counter for two months. How's that gonna taste?
If it died it will probably stink.
But I don't know if I would risk a batch on it.
Let us know what you decide.
But I don't know if I would risk a batch on it.
Let us know what you decide.
AndytheBeave
Well-Known Member
dude, I am currently dealing with almost the exact same thing and was going to pose the exact same question.
You beat me to it! I have a yeast cake that has been sitting for about a month under a half inch of beer in a carboy with an air lock. I am going to rinse and make a starter. That way, at least I will know if it is viable. It actually smells pretty good. Maybe I should drink the beer layer.
You beat me to it! I have a yeast cake that has been sitting for about a month under a half inch of beer in a carboy with an air lock. I am going to rinse and make a starter. That way, at least I will know if it is viable. It actually smells pretty good. Maybe I should drink the beer layer.
Ya mine smells good aswell. I'll have to make a starter a day early to make sure. An I'd like to avoid the long drive just for a yeast. I will update, but we will see what happense. Ive had beer on yeast for a while with no ill effect.
Ok, great..mr. Malty says your good to go....does his software take into account the storage conditions? Pitch it you'll be fine
Ok, great..mr. Malty says your good to go....does his software take into account the storage conditions? Pitch it you'll be fine
I'm sure it does not, that is also an awful lot of slurry to pitch.
Do you have any acutal advise?
Rinse it, don't rinse it?
Make a starter, perhaps step it up?
I'm sure ideally all of the above.
What if it comes out delicious, it could be a fun experiment.
In any case I will keep eveyone posted.
Yep....I would throw it out, unless I was stranded on an island. If that were the case, I would take a small quantity and culture a starter and pitch that.
Wilser, I respect your position, but I think you are coming across as harsh.
Ian, I'll be interested to see what happens. If I were experimenting, I might use a small batch, or more than one. I've used 1 or 2 gallon extract batches to try an undefined ingredient. If you have the capability, you might even try one with slurry vs a starter.
Ian, I'll be interested to see what happens. If I were experimenting, I might use a small batch, or more than one. I've used 1 or 2 gallon extract batches to try an undefined ingredient. If you have the capability, you might even try one with slurry vs a starter.
broadbill
Well-Known Member
I just checked Mr. Malty and it listed it as having 32% viability. This is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison as Mr. Malty's viability calculation is for smack packs/liquid yeast vials, but I think it is still a good rough indicator of viability changes with time.
Now also consider additional factors: this yeast has already been through a fermentation, it is "dirty" (exposed to hops, hot/cold break, etc.) and more importantly kept at room temp for a month. Not ideal conditions in any situation. I think 32% viability is optimistic, frankly.
I'm with Wilser and say throw it out. The next best idea is to make a starter with a small amount of slurry. Next best it to pitch a sh*t-ton of slurry and hope for the best.
Personally, I don't have the time to be screwing around with less than quality ingredients.
Now also consider additional factors: this yeast has already been through a fermentation, it is "dirty" (exposed to hops, hot/cold break, etc.) and more importantly kept at room temp for a month. Not ideal conditions in any situation. I think 32% viability is optimistic, frankly.
I'm with Wilser and say throw it out. The next best idea is to make a starter with a small amount of slurry. Next best it to pitch a sh*t-ton of slurry and hope for the best.
Personally, I don't have the time to be screwing around with less than quality ingredients.
broadbill
Well-Known Member
How so? If anything Wilser is being more than helpful. First, Wilser gave Ian his honest opinion (don't use it) which Ian summarily disregarded. Now Ian is looking to have his hand held and Wilser is accommodating him there. Wilser tolerates fools much better than many of us.
+1 totally agree
Not harsh at all. I think his advice is solid. After being very unharshly corrected earlier in the thread I see my proffered advice was very poor indeed. Sometimes anothers' perspective is all that's needed to let you see where you're wrong.
In the future, I'd just harvest yeast from your starter. I had several advantages:
- yeast are more clean and pure, not mixed with hop compounds and specialty grains from fermentation
- yeast is healthy and less stressed since it hasnt gone through a full fermentation
- yeast is less likely to start mutating from it original characteristics
- its easy to do and has less chance of infection. I just decant the starter, pitch the yeast, but save 100ml or so and stick it in a mason jar
- yeast are more clean and pure, not mixed with hop compounds and specialty grains from fermentation
- yeast is healthy and less stressed since it hasnt gone through a full fermentation
- yeast is less likely to start mutating from it original characteristics
- its easy to do and has less chance of infection. I just decant the starter, pitch the yeast, but save 100ml or so and stick it in a mason jar
Thanks everyone for the input, its nice to have some different perspectives. Easiest would be to throw it out, and this is what i have done in the past. I will keep you posted as to what i decide to do. Perhaps picking up the new yeast and brewing ten gallons and split it up half on the old cake and half with the new yeast. But we'll see.
So I did make the trip for the fresh yeast. I put 5-6 gal with that, 3 gallons got fermentise dry wheat beer yeast. And about another 3 gallons I threw onto the old yeast cake. After 12 hours, the old yeast cake is the only one that hasn't started. The other two are going strong. I do hope it starts up. Be neat to see how far off the flavour are between the fresh and old.
broadbill
Well-Known Member
The only dumper I ever had was because I was lazy and pitched a old harvested yeast slurry. When it didn't take off I scrambled and pitched a second, less old slurry. Another long lag time and it finally fermented.
Tasted like band-aids. Can't say for sure it was because of the old yeast, but if I were a betting man this is what I would put my money on.
I wasn't a big fan of slurry harvesting/washing to start with (I find it kind of a PITA to deal with, seems a bit bush league, not sure the yeast that comes out of it is in that great of shape)....I was more than happy to start saving back some of my starter like m00ps does. Either way, I need to make a starter to make sure I have viable yest for the next batch, no way I'm trusting another yeast sample sitting in the fridge.
AndytheBeave
Well-Known Member
Insinuating that someone is a fool because they asked a question and decided to try a harmless experiment is a bit heavy handed... I wish people would take the high road. No need to get personal.
Having said that, I went to wash/harvest my month+ old yeast cake yesterday and ended up tossing it. The 1/2" of beer on top looked ok but the smell... ugh it smelled like old paint. Too bad I was lazy with it. It was from Wyeast1332 which produced a fabulous pale ale.
Good luck to the OP on his experiment.
beardown2489
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Hefe yeast don't last nearly as long as other yeast according to Jamil. He says of your going to reuse it, do it fast.
I'd either really focus on making a good starter or just buy new yeast.
I'd either really focus on making a good starter or just buy new yeast.
It's funny you mention that. I watched an hour pod cast by Jamil saying that exact same thing. I find it counter intuitive that he mentions lager yeast lasts longer than hefes.
I'll be interested in your results.
beardown2489
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Cool.
Not wanting to highjack the thread but I have a similar issue and would love some advice..
so I made a 5 gal batch of pale ale a few weeks ago, I harvested the yeast cake from my fermenting bucket, leaving behind most of the trub. I added some un-fermented wort I had stored in the fridge (from the same batch, just the last runnings from the mash tun that I boiled for an hour separately with no hops).
I put this in a sanitized 2 liter plastic soda bottle, and stored it in the fridge. Is this yeast viable? will it still work for another batch of the same pale ale? how much should I use on another 5 gal batch? the whole thing?
Thanks for your input just want to know if I can use this yeast or just get a new vial.
Thanks again.
Ed.
so I made a 5 gal batch of pale ale a few weeks ago, I harvested the yeast cake from my fermenting bucket, leaving behind most of the trub. I added some un-fermented wort I had stored in the fridge (from the same batch, just the last runnings from the mash tun that I boiled for an hour separately with no hops).
I put this in a sanitized 2 liter plastic soda bottle, and stored it in the fridge. Is this yeast viable? will it still work for another batch of the same pale ale? how much should I use on another 5 gal batch? the whole thing?
Thanks for your input just want to know if I can use this yeast or just get a new vial.
Thanks again.
Ed.
Why did you add wort? Is this not a potential source for botulism over time?
When I harvest. Yeast cake goes from FV to sanitized jars and into the fridge. That's it. When I need the yeast, I make a starter ad add the slurry.
I'm afraid I'm not seeing the benefit of adding the wort prior to refrigeration.
I cannot apologize enough for taking this long to get back to you fine folks. Had to take a bit of a hiatus, but I'm now a licensed electrician! So that's good.
Back to the experiment. The beer made with the fresh wyeast 3068 was amazing as ever.
With regards to the older yeast cake: all the calculators i used recommended a crazy amout of slurry based on the age. So i just put 5 gals ontop of the yeast that was there. There was about an inch of beer still ontop from before. I was worried as fermentation took 2 days to start at all, but by day 3 she was going strong.
Conclusions:
The freah yeast was a little better, more banana but thats about it. Both finished at the same alcohol percentage.
So the experiment was a success. In a pinch an older yeast cake will make yummy beer. More testing should probably be done before drawing a concrete conclusion. But good enough for me.
Thanks!
Back to the experiment. The beer made with the fresh wyeast 3068 was amazing as ever.
With regards to the older yeast cake: all the calculators i used recommended a crazy amout of slurry based on the age. So i just put 5 gals ontop of the yeast that was there. There was about an inch of beer still ontop from before. I was worried as fermentation took 2 days to start at all, but by day 3 she was going strong.
Conclusions:
The freah yeast was a little better, more banana but thats about it. Both finished at the same alcohol percentage.
So the experiment was a success. In a pinch an older yeast cake will make yummy beer. More testing should probably be done before drawing a concrete conclusion. But good enough for me.
Thanks!
