Metallic and bitter taste - SS Brew Bucket, Star San and oxydation

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beauvafr

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If you were following me, you know I have had a couple of bad batches recently. I even tough of selling all my brew rigs.

I decided to go for something secure last month and I bought a 23L fresh wort of a West Coast IPA from a Festabrew. Honestly, I did not even tough it could go bad. But here it comes again! Strong metallic taste. Bitter.. a bit sour (not much but you can taste a bit of sourness).

Now maybe I can spot the bad***. For sure it's related to fermenting and/or kegging. I also know that all of my bad batches have something in common. The use of the Brew Bucket and star san.

Well.. From the first time I used S-San and SS Bucket together I noted a strange reaction. Some of the metal seems to go away from the bucket. You can see it by applying a scott towel on the bucket after it has been soaked in star san. The towels become greyish. Can this be related?

If not, I can only see two more things. Oxydation or contamination.

Oxydation : in all the batches, the bucket lid was firmly in place. For the West coast, I made a blow of tube for the first 4-5 days of fermentation and there was a lot of action going on in my star san jug. I even noted that my beer was a little bit carbed when sampling after 10 days. So I don't suspect any air going in. The West Coast was only 2 weeks in the fermenter.

Contamination : I did a complete and thorough clean of my rig before going on with the West coast. I throw every plastic except the lid (it's pricey $$). Oxyclean for the bucket, lid and all othe pieces. Special 24 hours oxyclean for the lid. 15 min soak in a mix of water and bleach for every parts. 5-6 rinses. And I finished it with Star San soaking using the recommended mix on the s-san bottle. I am fanatic with sanitization and I star san sprey everything that touch the beer. I can't see what I am doing wrong here.

What do you think?
 
I haven't been following, but try maybe pbw instead of oxi-clean?

If you do a full wipe down of the bucket, fill with water, do you still get the grey?

And finally, has your changed through the batches? Grain crush?
 
Get a glass carboy or better bottle and try that?
You don't need oxyclean or bleach, just regular cleaning and then use star san to sanitize.
If there is crud in the fermenor or brewpot that won't come easily, PBW and water for cleaning, star san to sanitize.
 
How are you carbonating? The mention of a metallic taste brings to mind the possibility of a carbonic acid bite which seems to be more common when burst carbing vs. slow force carbing (2 weeks at service pressure). If that's it, it'll fade away in about 2-3 weeks.
 
How are you carbonating? The mention of a metallic taste brings to mind the possibility of a carbonic acid bite which seems to be more common when burst carbing vs. slow force carbing (2 weeks at service pressure). If that's it, it'll fade away in about 2-3 weeks.

Depends. Most of the time burst. Maybe it's related. How would you suggest carbing?

Also my Co2 is not alimentary. Can it be related?
 
I haven't been following, but try maybe pbw instead of oxi-clean?

If you do a full wipe down of the bucket, fill with water, do you still get the grey?

And finally, has your changed through the batches? Grain crush?

PBW is not that much different from Oxy. Do you really think it would make a difference?

I will try with water and report.
 
PBW is not that much different from Oxy. Do you really think it would make a difference?

I will try with water and report.

If it's not oxi-clean free, yes. Also hard water and oxi tend to create problems.
 
Did you passivate your brew bucket before you used it? If not that could be your problem, all new stainless needs to be passivated before use unless the factory does it for you. SS brewbuckets are not passivated before they come to you and they recommend a warm star san bath for 20-30 minutes. Take a look at this link for another method if you havent done it. http://www.eckraus.com/blog/cleaning-a-new-brew-kettle
 
Well.. From the first time I used S-San and SS Bucket together I noted a strange reaction. Some of the metal seems to go away from the bucket. You can see it by applying a scott towel on the bucket after it has been soaked in star san. The towels become greyish. Can this be related?

Are you certain that's a SS bucket? Starsan should not have any adverse or unusual reactions with SS. If anything the acid will quickly passivate the surface. Pictures?
 
Did you passivate your brew bucket before you used it? If not that could be your problem, all new stainless needs to be passivated before use unless the factory does it for you. SS brewbuckets are not passivated before they come to you and they recommend a warm star san bath for 20-30 minutes. Take a look at this link for another method if you havent done it. http://www.eckraus.com/blog/cleaning-a-new-brew-kettle

No, I didn't. Never heard of that! Is it really imperative?
 
Did you passivate your brew bucket before you used it? If not that could be your problem, all new stainless needs to be passivated before use unless the factory does it for you. SS brewbuckets are not passivated before they come to you and they recommend a warm star san bath for 20-30 minutes. Take a look at this link for another method if you havent done it. http://www.eckraus.com/blog/cleaning-a-new-brew-kettle

Star San isn't something to use for passivating, you at a minimum you need oxylic acid (Bar Keepers Friend). So, that they suggest to use Star San makes me think that they just want you to give it a good sanitization before use. Personally, I would clean it thoroughly to make sure any machine oil residue was gone and then sanitize. If the OP is getting a gray film after Star San I'm thinking it is hard water interacting with it, especially if he is leaving it sitting in the fermenter for an extended length of time.
 
I did a long PBW soak first with my brewbuckets to clean them well and then did a higher strength Starsan soak.

I have 4 brewbuckets and have been using them since they first came out - I love them. No starsan/brewbucket problem here.
 
Star San isn't something to use for passivating, you at a minimum you need oxylic acid (Bar Keepers Friend). So, that they suggest to use Star San makes me think that they just want you to give it a good sanitization before use. Personally, I would clean it thoroughly to make sure any machine oil residue was gone and then sanitize. If the OP is getting a gray film after Star San I'm thinking it is hard water interacting with it, especially if he is leaving it sitting in the fermenter for an extended length of time.

I use municipal water. I dont think it's hard at all. Mostly soft.

Like I said I already cleaned it thoroughly.
 
Op are you taking steps to treat chlorine and chloramines? Doubt it could be related but something easy to do.
 
Is your CO2 used for kegging food grade? I have no first hand experience though have read stories about off flavors coming from industrial co2. Food grade obviously stricter regulations about purity. Just a thought.....
 
Regarding the gray deposits you removed, stainless does need to be cleaned after manufacturing and then re-passivated. Each time an abrasive is used for cleaning it needs to be passivated again.

The Scotch Brite pads are very good at removing the protective oxide layer, particularly with a scouring agent, such as Barkeepers Friend or Soft Scrub, and the like.

+1 on chlorine treatment, it maybe a combination of factors. Campden is your friend, and the small dosage won't leave a load of SO2 in your water, and whatever is left boils off. Charcoal filters can "remove" chlorine, but the flow needs to be like a trickle, no-one has patience for that.

I was amazed how many relied solely on the charcoal filters during Big Brew past Saturday.
 
Is your CO2 used for kegging food grade? I have no first hand experience though have read stories about off flavors coming from industrial co2. Food grade obviously stricter regulations about purity. Just a thought.....

Good point!
Although there doesn't seem to be that much need for "food grade" CO2, if there's is something like that. But, more so, a dirty cylinder (from a tank swap) can taint your beer badly.
 
All my co2 is food grade...

According to The Brewing Network, industrial and food grade CO2 generally come from the same plants:

The slight difference between industrial-grade CO2 and food-grade CO2 is the type of tests that are done to qualify CO2 as beverage or beer gas-grade compared to industrial-grade. Currently, the FDA's requirement for food-grade CO2 a 99.90% purity rating. The other .09% is made up of impurities such as hydrocarbons or nitrogen. Industrial grade CO2 is 99% pure CO2, also containing impurities such as hydrocarbons or nitrogen.

However, the nature of those impurities extremely important. They go on to suggest:

One impurity that all homebrewers should be aware of is benzene. Benzene is a no-no for homebrewers. If the CO2 that you are purchasing has high benzene levels, it will leave you and fellow drinkers with terrible headaches. When I say high levels, we are not talking about much. Benzene is usually an impurity that is referred to in PPB. The benzene level should be around 20 PPB.
 
I use municipal water. I dont think it's hard at all. Mostly soft.

Like I said I already cleaned it thoroughly.

You leave it sitting for a while though? I have soft water as well and if I leave it sitting for a while it will give everything, particularly non-metallics a gray slimy coat. I don't know that catalyst for it though as sometimes it doesn't occur.
 
If your SS Brew Bucket is still giving grey smudges when wiped, then it's not properly passivated. As noted above, Barkeepers Friend should be used at first use, then you shouldn't need it onward. May take a couple tries with the BKF. Once passivated, never use green scrub pads (only sponges, or if needed, blue pads) and don't use bleach. Typical regimen is to remove the ball valve, unscrew it open to clean the guts, clean the bucket with a sponge and soapy water, and dry. Then use Starsan on next brew day. (note no need for PBW or Oxyclean).

If you bucket is properly passivated, then your problem lies elsewhere. Oh and remember to disassemble and clean the ball valve!
 
I had a hard time getting all the polishing compound off my brew bucket. Just soaking with PBW was not enough. I had to clean it with BKF. I'm thinking that may be your problem.
 
All my co2 is food grade...

According to The Brewing Network, industrial and food grade CO2 generally come from the same plants:

The slight difference between industrial-grade CO2 and food-grade CO2 is the type of tests that are done to qualify CO2 as beverage or beer gas-grade compared to industrial-grade. Currently, the FDA's requirement for food-grade CO2 a 99.90% purity rating. The other .09% is made up of impurities such as hydrocarbons or nitrogen. Industrial grade CO2 is 99% pure CO2, also containing impurities such as hydrocarbons or nitrogen.

However, the nature of those impurities extremely important. They go on to suggest:

One impurity that all homebrewers should be aware of is benzene. Benzene is a no-no for homebrewers. If the CO2 that you are purchasing has high benzene levels, it will leave you and fellow drinkers with terrible headaches. When I say high levels, we are not talking about much. Benzene is usually an impurity that is referred to in PPB. The benzene level should be around 20 PPB.

All you need do is ask your supplier or go to their website and they have their gas' impurities listed by grade of gas. My suppliers welding CO2 is almost exactly the same as the food grade.
 
I'm looking at these, and have seen multiple reports of them being kinda hard to clean initially:

Found this here:http://www.morebeer.com/products/ss-brewtech-brew-bucket-stainless-steel-fermenter.html#reviews
Machine oil March 15, 2014
By joe r
I got this bucket straight from SS. I cleaned it twice according to their instructions. Please if you get this clean it clean it clean it before use. I just racked out of it and got a machine oil cal common for my first brew in this thing even after cleaning as they say two times.

Great product, but the cleaning instructions do not clean this of oil. Must use some industrial de greaser and a brilo or something like that. Idk.
2 Comment(s) Add Comment | Was this review helpful to you? Yes No
Comment by DBHops on March 18, 2014
My first batch was ruined with greasy, metal taste and smell. They don't do a good job of explaining how to clean it sufficiently. (They also shipped the wrong valve size originally so I could not put it together.)
Comment by southfloridabrewer on March 14, 2015
I just cleaned it with pbw and TSP and it was ok, no off flavors or nasty grease taste. It was well explained in the documentation I received...

Also probably worth looking at SS Brew Tech's cleaning & pasivating instructions here: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0239/5187/t/2/assets/cleaning_instructions_8.5x11.pdf?3710

I know you mentioned oxyclean, starsan, and but as someone else mentioned, TSP sounds like what is really needed to clean it initially.

As for the CO2, I did run across this guide from Coca-Cola that I thought was interesting: http://www.cokesolutions.com/Pages/DownLoadFile.aspx?DocID=1274

Curious about how this turns out for you, as I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on one.
 
...
I know you mentioned oxyclean, starsan, and but as someone else mentioned, TSP sounds like what is really needed to clean it initially.
....
No no no!!! Barkeepers Friend needs to be used initially, and SS Brewtech really should revise those instructions. (and the powder version, not that lame liquid). This seems to be one of those cases where chemical cleaning simply isn't sufficient. I'd be willing to bet that you could still wipe off some nasty black stuff after an initial TSP soak. Wiping out with BKF takes what, 1 minute? So simple.

Honestly, there's just no reason to ever waste the water and chemicals to fill this up for cleaning. BKF the first time, then just a sponge and soap ever after. Quicker, easier, cheaper, and more "green."
 
My two were clean upon receipt. Sanitized and put into use immediately.
 
Please taste the wort/beer at each step.

Does the unfermented wort taste bitter/harsh?

Does the fermented beer in the fermentor taste bitter/harsh?

Does the non-carbonated beer from the keg (just after kegging) taste bitter/harsh?

Does the full-carbonated beer taste bitter/harsh?

Once you go through all these people will be able to focus on your problem...
 
To revive an old thread, I was tasting my Hefe during fermentation (in a new brewbucket) and it was fine. As soon as I racked to a keg I saw the black karusen line and after carbing I get a strong metallic flavor. When I did the initial clean on the bucket, I did a strong one wash and starsan.. after cleaning up from fermentation I noticed some grey still on the towell. I went and bought some TSP and did two washes and the strong starsan passivation last night. I'm not getting anyore grey on the towell.. is the metallic taste a direct result of the machine oil and in passivated stainless? I have this beer carbed pretty high since it's a German style Hefe.. I read it could also be caused by the carbonic acid..
 
To revive an old thread, I was tasting my Hefe during fermentation (in a new brewbucket) and it was fine. As soon as I racked to a keg I saw the black karusen line and after carbing I get a strong metallic flavor. When I did the initial clean on the bucket, I did a strong one wash and starsan.. after cleaning up from fermentation I noticed some grey still on the towell. I went and bought some TSP and did two washes and the strong starsan passivation last night. I'm not getting anyore grey on the towell.. is the metallic taste a direct result of the machine oil and in passivated stainless? I have this beer carbed pretty high since it's a German style Hefe.. I read it could also be caused by the carbonic acid..

I believe its from lack of adequate cleaning initially. some of these nice shiny things we get are dirty as hell even when they "look" clean.
 
The black color and metallic taste are from the stainless not being clean. It is really difficult to get it clean initially.

The good news is that it tends to be fine after the first batch that goes through it.

starsan passivation
FYI Star San does not passivate.
 
Then what is the reasoning for the 1oz to 1 gallon starsan step for? And yeah, it was definitely cleaner the second batch..
 
Then what is the reasoning for the 1oz to 1 gallon starsan step for?
It may be helpful for cleaning. Acids are rather good at removing inorganic residue.

I don't know why there's no much misinformation about passivation on the web. It's very simple: only citric acid and nitric acid are known to passivate.
 
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