Damn Carbonation won't happen

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eadavis80

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Got about 20 extract kits under my belt. However, my newest batch - NB's Extra Pale Ale (mild OG of about 1.045) just won't carbonate. It's been in an upper 60's degree room for over a month now. I even turned every bottle upside down to try to stir up those yeasties and still nothing. IT's not TOTALLY flat - but its carbonation is VERY MINIMAL. I just don't know what's wrong. HOwever, I did have 2 (of about the 7 I've tried) that were properly carbonated. I racked beer on top of the boiled and then cooled 5 oz. of priming sugar solution, as I always do and gave a gentle stir to mix it up properly - just really annoying. Any ideas?
 
Got about 20 extract kits under my belt. However, my newest batch - NB's Extra Pale Ale (mild OG of about 1.045) just won't carbonate. It's been in an upper 60's degree room for over a month now. I even turned every bottle upside down to try to stir up those yeasties and still nothing. IT's not TOTALLY flat - but its carbonation is VERY MINIMAL. I just don't know what's wrong. HOwever, I did have 2 (of about the 7 I've tried) that were properly carbonated. I racked beer on top of the boiled and then cooled 5 oz. of priming sugar solution, as I always do and gave a gentle stir to mix it up properly - just really annoying. Any ideas?

What kind of capper, and how old is it? Sometimes the bell can bend a bit with use so a good tight crimp is not achieved. This would allow co2 to escape even though the yeast and sugar are fine.
 
I'd say it's this model, or darn close - just red: http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/fermenters-favorite-royal-crown-bottle-capper. It came with the Brewer's Best Beginners Kit I got in January of 2014. Maybe they just don't last that long, eh?

I doubt it is the capper. It just needs more time. I have the red capper you mention and have capped over 300 cases of beer. Still works fine.

You mention upper sixties.. Is that 66 or 69? At 66 it will take longer to carb up. More time
 
I live in a tri-level and the beer is on the upper most floor - in all honesty now that spring has arrived, it's probably over 70 up there now and has been for the last week or so. Hopefully it's just a time thing, but odd considering every other beer I've ever done (some of which were 1.060 OG) carbed up in less time at lower temps...
 
I'm having a similar problem. Never had an issue before but anything I bottled in the last two months is weak carbonation. I've checked my scale for accuracy. I'm beginning to wonder if I got some bunk corn sugar. Was thinking maybe I could do a gravity test on it or something. I noticed it had some floaties in it. Thought at first my pot wasn't clean but it keeps happening.
 
Yeah, it's really annoying - and puzzling. Like I said, I've had 2 brews out of the 7 or so I've tried, that were carbonated okay. The flavor and aroma is good and there is SOME MILD carbonation, but no much. I have to pour it super aggressively (dump in the yeast and all) in a freezer glass just to get SOME hint of carbonation. Hopefully it's just a matter of time. I'll try one again this weekend.
 
Yeah, it's really annoying - and puzzling. Like I said, I've had 2 brews out of the 7 or so I've tried, that were carbonated okay. The flavor and aroma is good and there is SOME MILD carbonation, but no much. I have to pour it super aggressively (dump in the yeast and all) in a freezer glass just to get SOME hint of carbonation. Hopefully it's just a matter of time. I'll try one again this weekend.

Any way you can get those up into the low 70's? That might speed it up a bit.

If you have a south facing window or even west facing, you could wrap in a towel and let the sun hit them for a bit. That would warm them up some during the day.
 
Yeah, I have a west facing window, so I can try to use that to my advantage some. The room should warm up some this week, so hopefully next weekend it's better.
 
FG was 1.007 and I used harvested Safale-05 with a 650 ML starter.
 
I'm leaning toward you had starter that was low in viability (I think I read somewhere you can only use a restart x amount of times, but I think x was 10...)... The US05 is a beast, so with low viability, your yeast may have made so much alcohol in such a short amount of time that the number of yeast was unable to handle the toxic environment... so essentially you might be trying to carbonate with dead yeast...

Are you using a stir plate for starters? This will increase the viability of your starter especially if you are reusing...
 
It was the first generation of harvested yeast and it was coming off of a mild OG beer from the original - no more than 1.050 so I DOUBT that was it. I have made starters from harvested yeast in other brews of comparable gravity and not had this issue, but I guess anything is possible.
 
SWMBO always tells me to "think horses, not zebras!"

If you hear the clip-clop of a hoof, it's probably a horse. I'm just relaying to the common troubles I've experienced.

Or you simply did not pitch enough yeast... 600ml... *shrug*

Post your BeerSmith file if you used it.
 
But if the beer got down to 1.007 doesn't that mean I pitched plenty of healthy, viable yeast? It it was in poor condition, wouldn't it have resulted in stuck fermentation with a higher FG?
 
But if the beer got down to 1.007 doesn't that mean I pitched plenty of healthy, viable yeast? It it was in poor condition, wouldn't it have resulted in stuck fermentation with a higher FG?

Maybe...

1.007 from your OG is a lot of alcohol for your yeasts to live in... How long after fermentation was the beer left to secondary after the beer was finished with primary? There may have been ample time for the yeast to die off...

Anyhow. You may not find the answer you like here, but that's my vote.

Better luck on your next batch! :mug:
 
Maybe...

1.007 from your OG is a lot of alcohol for your yeasts to live in... How long after fermentation was the beer left to secondary after the beer was finished with primary? There may have been ample time for the yeast to die off...

Anyhow. You may not find the answer you like here, but that's my vote.

Better luck on your next batch! :mug:

5% ABV is a lot of alcohol?
 
Yeah, it's really annoying - and puzzling. Like I said, I've had 2 brews out of the 7 or so I've tried, that were carbonated okay. The flavor and aroma is good and there is SOME MILD carbonation, but no much. I have to pour it super aggressively (dump in the yeast and all) in a freezer glass just to get SOME hint of carbonation. Hopefully it's just a matter of time. I'll try one again this weekend.

You will get more head in a cool not frozen glass.
Also verify the capping quality by lightly shaking a bottle and see if it leaks. I bailed on the wing capper after 3rd brew. Some folks love their cappers I hate them!
 
I still really want someone to explain to me how the yeast might not be very viable if it fermented the beer down to 1.007. How would I know my yeast was weak when bottling? Interesting that a cool glass would have more carbonation than a frozen one. I thought the colder, the more head on my beer I normally got. I believe the capper caps tightly as I have turned each bottle of the batch upside down and never felt a drop of beer.
 
I've had a couple batches like that and it was definitely my capper. A single press doesn't seem to consistently make a seal with my cheap red wing capper. I have found if I press it once, turn the bottle slightly and cap again I get a much more consistent seal on my bottles. Might be worth a shot moving forward
 
Not sure what the problem is, but I would vote for just giving it more time, warming them up if you can, and maybe inverting the bottles to rouse the yeast every now and then.

I still really want someone to explain to me how the yeast might not be very viable if it fermented the beer down to 1.007. How would I know my yeast was weak when bottling? Interesting that a cool glass would have more carbonation than a frozen one. I thought the colder, the more head on my beer I normally got. I believe the capper caps tightly as I have turned each bottle of the batch upside down and never felt a drop of beer.

It's not a yeast viability problem. From how you described your process I could almost guarantee that your yeast are perfectly healthy. You harvested from a moderate gravity beer, made a decently sized starter (depending on how much slurry you pitched and if it was on a stir plate or not), pitched into a moderate to low gravity beer, and ended up with a moderate to low amount of alcohol.

Also, more head does not equal more carbonation in the glass. They are correlated in that a beer with more carbonation will naturally produce more head, but by aggressively pouring the beer to force it to have head you are knocking more CO2 out of solution in order to produce that foam. So the aggressive pour is reducing the carbonation you will experience in the glass. The cold glass is a good idea though because it will keep the beer colder longer and allow more CO2 to stay in solution longer.
 
it seems like you may have under-pitched slightly. mr. malty says you need over 700ml of slurry. but i just have my doubts it's a yeast issue. if it carbed a little in some that means there's still enough yeast to do the job. what about people that cold condition beer for a couple of weeks, and still get carbonation?
but then you said that it's not leaking any. so that's a bit confusing. but i wonder if the space is small enough for air to escape out but not liquid? maybe for your next batch, if you get to a next batch without solving the problem first, you could put a balloon over a bottle to see if there is any air leaking out?
also you said you tried it in a frozen glass, but did you try it in a warm glass? the one who mentioned the cold glass is right, it will inhibit carbonation a bit. it's actually a trick we use to bring some beer out on the boat for a few days from the keg. freeze the flip-top bottles, then pour the beer and cap.
oh actually that's another option on your next batch. get a flip-top bottle and see if that guy carbs up.
 
also, once you fix your problem, start using a priming sugar calculator. unless you're doing a 7-8 gallon brew, you're using way too much priming sugar. at 5 gallons you're getting more like 2.7 volumes of co2.
 
I am getting a LITTLE more carb on the last one I tried. NOw that we're getting near record highs in Michigan, the room where the beer sits is in the mid/upper 70's during the day. That probably helps some. I will try to find a balloon in my house somewhere and put one over my recently bottled Kolsch - that's an interesting idea. I did try a Kolsch yesterday that had only been in the bottle for 5 days and got carb/head on it. So, assuming the other Kolsches carb up (no guarantee given the inconsistency of the puzzling pale ale batch) at least I'll know it's not my capper. As for the priming sugar, I know many suggest using those calculators, but this is the 30th batch I've done and I've always just used 5 oz. Works fine for me 95% of the time. Guess there's no harm in NOT doing it, but since undercarb IMO is a way more annoying problem than over carb, I'd rather have too much than not enough priming sugar. If I did use a priming sugar calculator, would I just eyeball X percent of the 5 oz. bag as I don't have a scale...Thanks for the feedback. Today is cherry wheat brew day!
 
If I did use a priming sugar calculator, would I just eyeball X percent of the 5 oz. bag as I don't have a scale...Thanks for the feedback. Today is cherry wheat brew day!

I have read, and found from experience, that table sugar (cane sugar) has a very consistent bulk density: 1 fl oz = 1 weight oz. It takes a little less cane sugar than corn sugar, so be sure to read you priming table correctly.
 
Do you use oxiclean to wash your bottles? If oxiclean is not thoroughly rinsed with warn water, it can lead to inconsistent carb'ing and reduced head retention.
 
Not sure why yeast pitching rates were mentioned in this thread, it only takes a few billion cells to carbonate an entire 5 gallon batch under normal conditions!

Here is a link to a thread that I reference quite often to others on this forum, I think it has a lot of good information in it, not just in my own post, but others as well. I sincerely love to help any who've had problems carbonating their beer. A bottle conditioned beer is a thing of beauty, but many homebrewers never master the art, so they give up and go to kegging. It's not rocket science, or like building a piano. I about beat my head into the wall as a new homebrewer trying to get my beers to carbonate, I suffered dozens of batches that were undercarbonated. I realize you stated that your only having problems with this one batch though, so maybe it's just a fluke?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=494984

Also note that I mentioned in the referenced thread, that corn sugar and cane sugar are equals, cane sugar is actually about 10% more fermentable, so you may want to adjust accordingly if you so choose to use it.

Good luck!
 
I am thinking it's just a fluke - I read through that thread and I didn't really see any new info that I haven't read before, but thanks for sending it nonetheless. Yes, I do use Oxyclean, but I rinse each bottle THOROUGHLY 4 x's with hot water so I don't think it's that + I've used bottles over and over again so these same bottles have been used in other batches that carbonated fine. The APA is drinkable, but just not where it should be. At this point, I'm just accepting where it is and since the Kolsch that I bottled AFTER the APA did have good carb after only 5 days (I did a sneak preview) that makes me feel better that the capper/bottling process I'm using is fine, thus this is just a fluke. Here's hoping, anyway...
 
Yes, I do use Oxyclean, but I rinse each bottle THOROUGHLY 4 x's with hot water

I really have no idea how much rinsing is necessary, but Oxy tends to leave a sticky residue. Possibly rinse-and-pour isn't enough to get all of it out. A jet washer sets up really high turbulence inside the bottle and might get out some of the film that just a rinse-and-pour won't.
 
I am thinking it's just a fluke - I read through that thread and I didn't really see any new info that I haven't read before, but thanks for sending it nonetheless. Yes, I do use Oxyclean, but I rinse each bottle THOROUGHLY 4 x's with hot water so I don't think it's that + I've used bottles over and over again so these same bottles have been used in other batches that carbonated fine. The APA is drinkable, but just not where it should be. At this point, I'm just accepting where it is and since the Kolsch that I bottled AFTER the APA did have good carb after only 5 days (I did a sneak preview) that makes me feel better that the capper/bottling process I'm using is fine, thus this is just a fluke. Here's hoping, anyway...

You really don't need to use any soap on them, unless you just insist on it. A simple rinse in tap water, or a nice soak in tap water to remove labels, and then a star san dunk at bottling time is all that you need. I've tried many methods over the years and I finally found the simple one was the best for me. It sounds like your rinsing plenty, so I doubt that was your problem anyway. Even if there was some left in there, it wouldn't change the amount of C02.

All this talk of bottling is making me want to evict some yeasties from their 12 ounce, 1 cap apartments, but unfortunately I have to work tonight....sigh.
 
I only use the Oxy Clean on my "first generation" cleaning - meaning times I clean them to get the labels off. Once my labels are off, I only rinse them out with hot water 4 x's IMMEDIATELY after each pour. In any event, if the pale ale only gets to X amount of carb for the rest of the batch, so be it. I'm still drinking them - and enjoying them - just not as much as I wish I could.
 
Well, I'm waving the white flag on this batch - it is what it is - lame carbonation after a month + in 70+ degree room. What is puzzling is there are SOME bubbles that come up from the bottom of the glass and there is some lacing on the glass after the beer is drank, but no matter how aggressively I pour, or no matter how cold the glass is that I pour the beer into, there is NO HEAD on this beer. It's good decent flavor and aroma, but just wish it would have carbed up eventually. At least I know my bottling / priming practices must be good because the next batch carbed up fine, so at least I know my capper is okay.
 
Well, I'm waving the white flag on this batch - it is what it is .... It's good decent flavor and aroma, but just wish ....

No sense in waving or wishing. You are adopting the right attitude and enjoying it for what it is. Maybe it will help to pretend it is a cask conditioned beer and you are experiencing some little bit of what beer in the 18th or 19th century might have been like.

I once primed with half the needed corn sugar and did not realize it till opening the bottles. Since everything else was okay, like yours, I just shifted mindsets and enjoyed it anyway. I even BS'ed a bit and passed it off as as Pre Revolutionary War Era ale and was tole that it was "quite likable."
 
Well, I'm waving the white flag on this batch - it is what it is - lame carbonation after a month + in 70+ degree room. What is puzzling is there are SOME bubbles that come up from the bottom of the glass and there is some lacing on the glass after the beer is drank, but no matter how aggressively I pour, or no matter how cold the glass is that I pour the beer into, there is NO HEAD on this beer. It's good decent flavor and aroma, but just wish it would have carbed up eventually. At least I know my bottling / priming practices must be good because the next batch carbed up fine, so at least I know my capper is okay.

If you don't pour it so aggressively you'll have more carbonation to enjoy in the glass. Since you're not getting a head on it either way and that's purely aesthetic anyway, I would just pour it regularly into a chilled glass. That sucks about the carbonation though!
 
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