Bottling with short neck bottles

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

ncredneck

Active Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
41
Reaction score
1
I'm brewing my first kit beer, it is a midwest supplys Hex nut brown ale. I am using mixed long neck and short bottles for this because it is what I have around and after bottling it would seem that there is less head room in the short neck bottles. My consern is if they will blow their tops. Any one that bottles with short necks let me know.
Thanx
 
I'm a noob also, only 4 batches past kits but I've use founders bottles that are short and I've never had a problem. My bottles usually don't make it past a month or two so I don't know about long storage. :mug:
 
I fill all my bottles to about 3/4 inch from the top. I touch the filler against the neck to get more in the bottle. Never had an issue.

Why do I do it?
- I think the less head space (you do need some) helps to get the CO2 into the solution.
- Less O2 in the bottle, less oxidation, stays fresher longer
- It reduces the potential damage if the bottle does over-carb. High pressure liquid will crack a bottle, high pressure gas will explode.
 
I hope you are using a bottling wand. It makes things easy. That said, long or short neck bottles, you will have the correct head space. Fill to the very brim. When you pull the wand out, the space the wand takes up is the " perfect" head space.
Tom
 
I hope you are using a bottling wand. It makes things easy. That said, long or short neck bottles, you will have the correct head space. Fill to the very brim. When you pull the wand out, the space the wand takes up is the " perfect" head space.
Tom

Exactly. If you don't have a wand you should get one. An auto-siphon and bottling wand are two gadgets that really pay off.
 
I've used shorties before with no problems. My favorite one is the bottle style that Redhook uses. It's the perfect size imo if you have to load a small cooler where bottle height is an issue.
 
I like using shorties because they fit better in my mini-fridge. If you're using a wand, just fill as usual and you'll be fine. The biggest problem I have with them seems to come at capping. I've had several break during the capping process...
 
I hope you are using a bottling wand. It makes things easy. That said, long or short neck bottles, you will have the correct head space. Fill to the very brim. When you pull the wand out, the space the wand takes up is the " perfect" head space.
Tom

I disagree with this, it does not leave the 'perfect' head space. It is a myth, and leaves too much space in the bottle. It works fine, but less space is better.

Per Palmer: "Fill to about 3/4 inch from the top of the bottles."

Per Papazian: "To minimize the detrimental effects of oxidation in bottled beer, reduce the air space, which will reduce the amount of oxygen in the bottle. A half inch is perfectly all right for all bottled beer. The magical 1 to 1.5 inch air space that we have become so accustomed to seeing in commercially bottled beer is little more than the space dictated by high-speed counterpressure bottling machines."

Commercial bottlers spray water into the top of the bottle to foam the beer to evacuate the head space, and cap on the foam.
 
The shorter and fatter the bottle, the less beer the wand will displace, thus leaving less head space when removed. I started on the short 11 oz. bottles used by Full Sail Session Ale and still use them (among others) and have not had any problems....
 
I like using the shorter bottles,as they look a bit different. Not sure what type of capper you are using, but I did have some trouble capping them with a wing capper. When I switched to a bench capper it was easy as pie.
 
I like using the shorter bottles,as they look a bit different. Not sure what type of capper you are using, but I did have some trouble capping them with a wing capper. When I switched to a bench capper it was easy as pie.

I have also had some issues using the wing capper on short bottles. Broke a few necks - I think they were primarily Abita bottles. Haven't had any issues within Sierra Nevada ones if memory serves.
 
I live next to Founder's brewing and use their short bottles a lot in my homebrewing, haven't had an issue either :)

**Edit: I bottled today (5/20/15) and had difficulty with my short neck bottles from Founders this time, luckily didn't break any
 
I do find the short bottles trickier to cap, particularly ones that have a smaller lip for my wing capper to grab, never broken one though luckily. They allow me to stack beer three bottles high in my chest freezer though so I'm a fan. On the flip side they're wider, so you can't fit as many next to each other in the same space.
 
Finnish bottles are all short and stubby, I really like then for bottling as they all go in the crate and store easily.

Most issues i've had is with german bottles, short lips, weird shaped lips, nasty to cap.
 
This would solve your capping issue!
$395 ea.
Group buy can save $
image.jpg
 
Looks like some sort of animal tried to chew a hole in the red board there.
 
Looks like some sort of animal tried to chew a hole in the red board there.

Ha ha, yeh that is nylon and original prototyp. Using different setup for location now. Found that the location of the bottle is not as critical as original thought.
 
Ha ha, yeh that is nylon and original prototyp. Using different setup for location now. Found that the location of the bottle is not as critical as original thought.
It didn't quite look like wood so I figured it was something along those lines.

I was just having a little fun. The capper looks like a neat gizmo. If you have a picture of a more recent version that might make it look more polished and less prototype-ish, that might be more appealing to potential customers.

Just my two pennies. Best of luck!
 
I fill all my bottles to about 3/4 inch from the top. I touch the filler against the neck to get more in the bottle. Never had an issue.

Why do I do it?
- I think the less head space (you do need some) helps to get the CO2 into the solution.
- Less O2 in the bottle, less oxidation, stays fresher longer
- It reduces the potential damage if the bottle does over-carb. High pressure liquid will crack a bottle, high pressure gas will explode.

I know this is from a couple weeks ago, but I just wanted to point out that this is not correct.

1. Less headspace does not help "get CO2 into solution". It doesn't need any help, it's pretty much always in a state of equilibrium (between dissolved and gaseous CO2, dictated by the current pressure in the bottle) starting right after it's created by the yeast. And beer at room temp has about the same amount of CO2 in solution as chilled beer.
2. Less O2 in the bottle is a somewhat valid reason. But I'm pretty sure the yeast will consume a lot, if not all, of the O2 while fermenting the priming sugar. And I've never had any problems from this that I've noticed.
3. High pressure liquid will crack, high pressure gas will explode?? Firstly, pressure is pressure. It doesn't matter if the pressure is "coming from" liquid or gas, it will have the same effect on glass. Secondly, the pressure in the bottle will always be uniformly distributed throughout the entire closed system of the bottle. There is never (and physically could never) be more pressure in the headspace than in the liquid.

The magical 1 to 1.5 inch air space that we have become so accustomed to seeing in commercially bottled beer is little more than the space dictated by high-speed counterpressure bottling machines."

And the inch or so of headspace we have become accustomed to seeing in homebrewed beers is little more than the space dictated by the convenience of filling to the top, removing the bottling wand, and not having to fiddle with tapping the end of the wand on the top and trying to get just the right amount of headspace.
 
I know this is from a couple weeks ago, but I just wanted to point out that this is not correct.

1. Less headspace does not help "get CO2 into solution". It doesn't need any help, it's pretty much always in a state of equilibrium (between dissolved and gaseous CO2, dictated by the current pressure in the bottle) starting right after it's created by the yeast. And beer at room temp has about the same amount of CO2 in solution as chilled beer.
2. Less O2 in the bottle is a somewhat valid reason. But I'm pretty sure the yeast will consume a lot, if not all, of the O2 while fermenting the priming sugar. And I've never had any problems from this that I've noticed.
3. High pressure liquid will crack, high pressure gas will explode?? Firstly, pressure is pressure. It doesn't matter if the pressure is "coming from" liquid or gas, it will have the same effect on glass. Secondly, the pressure in the bottle will always be uniformly distributed throughout the entire closed system of the bottle. There is never (and physically could never) be more pressure in the headspace than in the liquid.



And the inch or so of headspace we have become accustomed to seeing in homebrewed beers is little more than the space dictated by the convenience of filling to the top, removing the bottling wand, and not having to fiddle with tapping the end of the wand on the top and trying to get just the right amount of headspace.

Sorry, but I think I am correct. Just because it doesn't fit with what you do does not make it incorrect

1. With less headspace, you have to get more gas into solution. For a given pressure, a fixed volume can only contain a certain amount of gas. Assuming 2 bottles are at the same pressure, the one with the smaller headspace will hold more gas in the liquid.

2. When priming, I don't think the yeast consume any O2.

3. Liquid is incompressible, so when the bottle 'explodes' the liquid does not expand, and provides zero energy to make the glass go flying. The energy behind the explosion is the expansion of the gas in the bottle. Yes there is some in solution, but the majority of it is in the headspace. The bigger the headspace, the bigger any potential explosion.

And I'll let you argue with Papazian about the inch to inch and half in the Commercial bottle.

People don't seem to have any noticeable issues with using the level left by the wand. I was just pointing out that there are a couple of noted Brewers who say that it is not the 'Perfect' fill level, and I agree with them.
 
I have a bunch of session bottles and my wing capper does not work for them. The body of the bottle is in the way, when I activate the levers down it pops up and away from the cap.

session_lager11oz__67184.1373378823.1280.1280.jpg


Sucks, cause the beer is just OK and that's the main reason I was drinking them. :3
 
I have a bunch of session bottles and my wing capper does not work for them. The body of the bottle is in the way, when I activate the levers down and it pops away from the cap.

Turn the metal plates around and see if it works then.
 
Jamican red stripe bottles work well with a wing capper. Huray beer
Those seem thinner to me than other bottles. I always toss them into the recycling bin if someone gives me those as empties. It's probably not a big deal, but I'm building up enough of a surplus that I can be choosy.
 
Sorry, but I think I am correct. Just because it doesn't fit with what you do does not make it incorrect

I'm not saying that the way you fill bottles is incorrect or that there is anything wrong with doing it that way at all. If it works for you and the perceived benefits outweigh the costs then that's great. I was just saying that I didn't think some of the benefits you listed were quite accurate.

Sorry if I came off a little confrontational, it's hard for me to gauge when typing.

1. With less headspace, you have to get more gas into solution. For a given pressure, a fixed volume can only contain a certain amount of gas. Assuming 2 bottles are at the same pressure, the one with the smaller headspace will hold more gas in the liquid.

The smaller headspace bottle would only have more gas in solution because the pressure is higher because there is less headspace for the gaseous CO2 to be compressed in. And since you put more primed beer in it, the total amount of CO2 in the bottle will be higher than a less filled bottle further increasing the pressure and making it more likely to burst (if it was overcarbed for some reason) than the larger headspace bottle.

2. When priming, I don't think the yeast consume any O2.

If there is O2 available, the yeast will scavenge it. I'm not sure how much though which is why I said this was probably a valid benefit.


3. Liquid is incompressible, so when the bottle 'explodes' the liquid does not expand, and provides zero energy to make the glass go flying. The energy behind the explosion is the expansion of the gas in the bottle. Yes there is some in solution, but the majority of it is in the headspace. The bigger the headspace, the bigger any potential explosion.

Right, the actual explosion will come from the compressed gas. But the pressure on the glass is the same throughout the bottle. The gas is pushing on the incompressible liquid and the liquid is transferring that force uniformly throughout the bottle. There isn't more pressure on the glass that's touching the headspace than the glass that's touching the liquid. So the total pressure reaching the explosion threshold is what you have to worry about. And like I stated earlier, with a smaller headspace the gas is more compressed and there is more total CO2 in the bottle leading to a slightly higher pressure, which would push it slightly closer to the threshold for explosion. And since the gas is more compressed the explosion will be more forceful if it occurs. You're right that the smaller headspace bottle would have slightly less glass exposed to the expanding gas though. But the glass that does go flying will be slightly more forceful, so I don't know which is better.

But the difference in the amount of headspace is so small that all of this is pretty much negligible anyway. If the bottle is overcarbed enough, then it's going to explode, and it's going to be bad either way.

And I'll let you argue with Papazian about the inch to inch and half in the Commercial bottle.

People don't seem to have any noticeable issues with using the level left by the wand. I was just pointing out that there are a couple of noted Brewers who say that it is not the 'Perfect' fill level, and I agree with them.

And I was just pointing out that the perfect fill level is going to be different for different people depending on what's important to you. For me, and many others, the benefits of a quicker and smoother bottling process outweigh the costs of a larger headspace (mostly because I don't see much cost), but for you they don't. And both ways work just fine with very little difference between them.
 
I have a bunch of session bottles and my wing capper does not work for them. The body of the bottle is in the way, when I activate the levers down it pops up and away from the cap.

session_lager11oz__67184.1373378823.1280.1280.jpg


Sucks, cause the beer is just OK and that's the main reason I was drinking them. :3

I started out on those bottles and have not had any problems with this capper... I still use 'em. They're awesome!
Yes, I got it off ebay and it was pretty cheaply priced, but hey! It has not failed me yet, and I've capped at least 8 different kinds of bottles with it! The trick with the short-neck bottles is you have to start the downward motion of the handles before the crimper cup makes contact with the cap.

capper.JPG
 
I started out on those bottles and have not had any problems with this capper... I still use 'em. They're awesome!
Yes, I got it off ebay and it was pretty cheaply priced, but hey! It has not failed me yet, and I've capped at least 8 different kinds of bottles with it! The trick with the short-neck bottles is you have to start the downward motion of the handles before the crimper cup makes contact with the cap.
I used to have a metal capper like that years back, it worked great....now I have a Red Baron (?) or a plastic knockoff of a RB, and it's a lot more finicky, but....I bottle in any kind of pop-off bottles, only problem I've had has been a couple necks breaking, seemingly on Stella Artois bottles more than anything else, for whatever reason.
 
For me, the best way to cap a bottle, any bottle is to PUSH the cap onto the bottle with a bell.
The wing cappers use a system to pull the cap down onto the bottle with a bell. This system caused many issues with my bottle choice, ( Boulevard short bottles). By eliminating the pul portion and utilizing the push system I eliminated the problems of, poor sealing, broken tops etc.
yes the equipment cost more but peace of mind was worth the effort.
image.jpg
 
I use the stubby session lager bottles to bottle beer that needs to be cold conditioned in the fridge. They take up less room. My countertop lever cappper with a block of wood does a good job on them, my wing cappers are useless on the stubby bottles. Yeah the session lager is only so-so, my g/f recycled the stubby bottles after she drank my homebrew (made specially for her) until she got educated about reusing them. Dumb blonde moment I guess. I like using different size bottles for different brews, then I don;t have to worry about labels.
 
For me, the best way to cap a bottle, any bottle is to PUSH the cap onto the bottle with a bell.
The wing cappers use a system to pull the cap down onto the bottle with a bell. This system caused many issues with my bottle choice, ( Boulevard short bottles). By eliminating the pul portion and utilizing the push system I eliminated the problems of, poor sealing, broken tops etc.
yes the equipment cost more but peace of mind was worth the effort.
View attachment 276843[/QUOTE

this is not the home brew market
 
For me, the best way to cap a bottle, any bottle is to PUSH the cap onto the bottle with a bell.
The wing cappers use a system to pull the cap down onto the bottle with a bell. This system caused many issues with my bottle choice, ( Boulevard short bottles). By eliminating the pul portion and utilizing the push system I eliminated the problems of, poor sealing, broken tops etc.
yes the equipment cost more but peace of mind was worth the effort.
View attachment 276843[/QUOTE

this is not the home brew market

Correct and well said.
 
Correct and well said.

For me, the best way to cap a bottle, any bottle is to PUSH the cap onto the bottle with a bell.
The wing cappers use a system to pull the cap down onto the bottle with a bell. This system caused many issues with my bottle choice, ( Boulevard short bottles). By eliminating the pul portion and utilizing the push system I eliminated the problems of, poor sealing, broken tops etc.
yes the equipment cost more but peace of mind was worth the effort.
View attachment 276843[/QUOTE

this is not the home brew market

I'm sorry, did I offend someone.?
 
Back
Top