Lager yeast with belgian sour mix (WLP 655)

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philosofool

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I'm going to be making my first ever sour and using White Labs Belgian Sour Mix. It is supposed to be pitched with another yeast. I have a lager that's about to be racked for lagering and was wondering if it's bad idea to use that lager yeast (Southern German Lager, WLP838) at 70 with the sour mix. Obviously, I'm not looking for "lager" character in this beer, I just need to supplement the sour mix with a fuller pitch of Sachromyces.
 
You really just need anything that will give a healthy fermentation. It won't have lager character bc you'll likely ferment it warm and the bugs will change everything. FWIW, New Belgium uses lager yeast for all of their sours. Go for it.
 
Seems like the best thread for this: Can anyone with more experience than me think of a reason why a sour lager fermented in steps would present problems? Ferment warm with lacto for a few days, drop to room temp and let pedio establish itself for a week or so, then drop to lager fermentation temps and pitch a big starter. Go through full lagering process, then introduce brett at room temperature.

Not much in the way of Google hits for this, which makes me take pause that it's either problematic in some way I'm not seeing, or a lot of extra work for little gain.
 
Seems like the best thread for this: Can anyone with more experience than me think of a reason why a sour lager fermented in steps would present problems? Ferment warm with lacto for a few days, drop to room temp and let pedio establish itself for a week or so, then drop to lager fermentation temps and pitch a big starter. Go through full lagering process, then introduce brett at room temperature.

Not much in the way of Google hits for this, which makes me take pause that it's either problematic in some way I'm not seeing, or a lot of extra work for little gain.

I'm not sure I'd do it this way. If you pitch lactic acid bacteria first, you may drop your pH into the range where your saccharomyces may struggle. I would just pitch all the bugs and yeast at the same time. I would think you'd lose any lager-like character over the long aging period anyway, so I'm not seeing much gain from this method. I don't remember the conditions at which NB ferments their sours, or specifically why they use a lager strain. I think I remember them fermenting on the warm side, which would encourage some ester production. I can check and get back with you.
 
I'm not sure I'd do it this way. If you pitch lactic acid bacteria first, you may drop your pH into the range where your saccharomyces may struggle. I would just pitch all the bugs and yeast at the same time. I would think you'd lose any lager-like character over the long aging period anyway, so I'm not seeing much gain from this method. I don't remember the conditions at which NB ferments their sours, or specifically why they use a lager strain. I think I remember them fermenting on the warm side, which would encourage some ester production. I can check and get back with you.

Makes sense, thanks for the thoughts! I'm interested in the idea of a "sour lager" (e.g. fermented like a lager but with traditional bugs), but this may ultimately land in the impracticable/not worth the effort box.

To the extent that maybe it *can* work out, perhaps the answer is to simply finish with Brett rather than give it a proper Brett secondary (thus preserving lager character). Then I'd focus on pedio/lacto in the fermentation, which you mention pitching with sacch -- if I ferment at proper lager temps right off the bat, would the lacto and pedio take? If I ferment warmer to accommodate I worry that might sacrifice too much on the lager end (and get close to "why not just use ale yeast" territory).
 
Makes sense, thanks for the thoughts! I'm interested in the idea of a "sour lager" (e.g. fermented like a lager but with traditional bugs), but this may ultimately land in the impracticable/not worth the effort box.

To the extent that maybe it *can* work out, perhaps the answer is to simply finish with Brett rather than give it a proper Brett secondary (thus preserving lager character). Then I'd focus on pedio/lacto in the fermentation, which you mention pitching with sacch -- if I ferment at proper lager temps right off the bat, would the lacto and pedio take? If I ferment warmer to accommodate I worry that might sacrifice too much on the lager end (and get close to "why not just use ale yeast" territory).

The real drawback of this approach is using pediococcus in the absence of brett. Pedio can produce undesirable bi-products (diacetyl, increased viscosity) that are managed and broken down by brettanomyces.

I suppose, maybe, you could get what you're after by doing your primary lager fermentation and then pitching souring bugs + brett in secondary. You would have to warm it up to ale temps though for the bugs to sour in any reasonable length of time. I don't have any direct experience using lager yeast this way (or much experience with lagers at all) but I wonder if, given the reduced esters in lagers vs ale, if the brett complexity would be reduced compared to an ale fermentation. Could be worth a try.

Good luck!
 
The real drawback of this approach is using pediococcus in the absence of brett. Pedio can produce undesirable bi-products (diacetyl, increased viscosity) that are managed and broken down by brettanomyces.

I suppose, maybe, you could get what you're after by doing your primary lager fermentation and then pitching souring bugs + brett in secondary. You would have to warm it up to ale temps though for the bugs to sour in any reasonable length of time. I don't have any direct experience using lager yeast this way (or much experience with lagers at all) but I wonder if, given the reduced esters in lagers vs ale, if the brett complexity would be reduced compared to an ale fermentation. Could be worth a try.

Good luck!

Thanks, BigPerm! This may be one of those ideas for which there's a reason no one talks about it, but I'm getting more into lagering and was curious if there was any way to hybridize the two. If I ever do get around to doing it, I'll report back with my results.
 
Curious if this ever came to fruition. I am contemplating (slightly) kettle souring a helles but have not found any info online regarding this. Wondering how sensitive lager yeast would be to lower pH environment.
 
@BrewDawg79 I just thought of the same idea. Did you ever do it?

Has anyone kettle soured and attempt to use a lager strain like WLP800 at traditional temps? Does this yeast perform OK with pH in the low 3’s?

Wife is pregnant and loves sours, so I thought this might be a great way to make something we both like, then split the batch and neuter hers by boiling off as much EtOH as possible. Thoughts?
 
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