Adding Crystal Malts vs Mashing at a Higher Temp

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Brett3rThanU

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Regarding an all-grain batch, let's say I brewed an IPA with 1 lb of cara-vienna, the lighter crystal variety and mashed at 153F. I then brewed the exact same IPA without the cara-vienna (more base malt giving it same OG), but mashed at say 156F resulting in both beers having the exact same FG. Other than color, how different would the flavor be? How different is sweetness from a light crystal malt vs mashing higher leaving more unfermentable sugars?
 
Regarding an all-grain batch, let's say I brewed an IPA with 1 lb of cara-vienna, the lighter crystal variety and mashed at 153F. I then brewed the exact same IPA without the cara-vienna (more base malt giving it same OG), but mashed at say 156F resulting in both beers having the exact same FG. Other than color, how different would the flavor be? How different is sweetness from a light crystal malt vs mashing higher leaving more unfermentable sugars?

The FG isn't so much an indicator of "sweet". Mashing high creates a more dextrinous wort, and will give more body to the beer but not really sweetness.

Crystal malt has a distinct flavor of caramel sweetness.
 
The FG isn't so much an indicator of "sweet". Mashing high creates a more dextrinous wort, and will give more body to the beer but not really sweetness.

Crystal malt has a distinct flavor of caramel sweetness.

So, you're saying that mashing at higher temperatures doesn't make beer sweeter? Just "thicker" (more body)?

Also, what about the idea of using table/brown sugar in a recipe but compensating for the "drying" effect by increasing the mash temp?

For example :
13 lb. Base malt
1lb. crystal 30
Mash at 150°

vs.

9 lb. Base malt
1 lb. Crystal 30
2 lb. Table/brown... Sugar
Mash at 156°

What would be the difference? As I understand it right now, the first one would get a large amount of alcohol from the base malt, leaving a relatively low amount of unfermentables, mimicking use of the sugar in the second recipe. Am I looking at it correctly?
 
The mix of maybe over 40l caramel malts and hops is a distinct flavor. One of the SN harvest ales did this too and it's not good. Mash temp won't do what you are asking in my opinion, but it does make a difference.
 
I personally despise the taste of fermented brown sugar with that awful molasses-y taste without sweetness. It's really gross to me, but I could probably stand it in a barleywine or some other very dark aged beer with plum/toffee notes. So right there, I would hate that second recipe because of the vile non-sweet molasses burnt sugar notes.

But your question was this: What would be the difference? As I understand it right now, the first one would get a large amount of alcohol from the base malt, leaving a relatively low amount of unfermentables, mimicking use of the sugar in the second recipe. Am I looking at it correctly?

The difference would be flavor, color, body, and balance. So, the whole recipe changes when the recipe changes. The body may change, or may not. The first beer would probably be a medium bodied beer, with the "American" flavor. The second beer would be "thicker" with the higher mash temp, with odd toffee flavor from the fermented brown sugar. They would be totally different.
 
As Yooper says steer clear of brown sugar unless you really want to age it, used a pound of it in one beer and the bite took six months to age out.

The mix of maybe over 40l caramel malts and hops is a distinct flavor. One of the SN harvest ales did this too and it's not good. Mash temp won't do what you are asking in my opinion, but it does make a difference.

Not necessarily bad. See Arrogant Bastard for example.
 
Ok, good. Thanks for the info. The brown sugar isn't really a big part of the question, but it's good to know the effect it has. As the recipe says, it could just as easily have been white table sugar. I was more curious about the effect of the mash temperature. Thanks for the info!
 
Yeah, to describe a result only in generic terms like "sweetness" and "body" and "color" is to ignore the fact that each malt brings its own flavor nuances to the party. Changing the grain bill changes the flavor.

In my experience, a general survey of info on the internet regarding mash temperature and its effects on the final beer tends to send a very exaggerated impression to new brewers regarding how impactful it is. Sure, there is a range that you want to be in to ensure various processes happen, but I'd bet money that if you mashed one beer at 153 and another at 156 as suggested, and kept everything else exactly the same, you'd not be able to reliably tell them apart in a blind test.
 
I personally despise the taste of fermented brown sugar with that awful molasses-y taste without sweetness. It's really gross to me, but I could probably stand it in a barleywine or some other very dark aged beer with plum/toffee notes. So right there, I would hate that second recipe because of the vile non-sweet molasses burnt sugar notes.

But your question was this: What would be the difference? As I understand it right now, the first one would get a large amount of alcohol from the base malt, leaving a relatively low amount of unfermentables, mimicking use of the sugar in the second recipe. Am I looking at it correctly?

The difference would be flavor, color, body, and balance. So, the whole recipe changes when the recipe changes. The body may change, or may not. The first beer would probably be a medium bodied beer, with the "American" flavor. The second beer would be "thicker" with the higher mash temp, with odd toffee flavor from the fermented brown sugar. They would be totally different.
I haven't put brown sugar in a beer yet, but I'm curious about the difference in taste between brown sugar and Belgian dark candi sugar. Anybody have experience with that?
 
If you manage to get the exact same FG (which I doubt you'd get), the beer with with the crystal and caravienne would definitely have a more pronounced malty flavor.

But the in my opinion mouthfeel would be perceived thicker in the higher mashed beer.

Though 153F and 156F is pretty close to make a difference. 150F vs 155F. Would be more obvious.

I like playing around with Munich and Vienna also.
 
I haven't put brown sugar in a beer yet, but I'm curious about the difference in taste between brown sugar and Belgian dark candi sugar. Anybody have experience with that?

Belgian dark candi sugar has toffee/raisin notes that can be wonderful in something like a dubbel. I don't get "molasses without sweetness" from dark (caramelized) syrups.
 
Belgian dark candi sugar has toffee/raisin notes that can be wonderful in something like a dubbel. I don't get "molasses without sweetness" from dark (caramelized) syrups.
Hmm. I've got plans to brew a Goose Island Matilda clone that calls for 1.25 lb. dark brown sugar. That sounded cloying to me, so I was already planning to dial it back to .5 lb. and make up the difference with DME, but maybe also subbing out the brown sugar for dark candi would be a good idea.
 
I haven't put brown sugar in a beer yet, but I'm curious about the difference in taste between brown sugar and Belgian dark candi sugar. Anybody have experience with that?

COMPLETELY different. Candi sugar is caramelzed, brown sugar isn't.
 
Hmm. I've got plans to brew a Goose Island Matilda clone that calls for 1.25 lb. dark brown sugar. That sounded cloying to me, so I was already planning to dial it back to .5 lb. and make up the difference with DME, but maybe also subbing out the brown sugar for dark candi would be a good idea.

I think that Dog Fish Head's India Brown Ale has brown sugar in it too but I don't care for that beer. Also adding dark sugar WON'T make it sweet. The yeast will eat all the sweetness, it'll just give it a very strong bite that you probably won't like.
 
As others have said, any type of crystal will contribute its own unique flavor. I'd even argue that it doesn't necessarily add a lot sweetness if you're mashing low, just the perception of sweetness. I couldn't imagine doing an IPA with just 2 row, personally. Sounds boring. It's always gonna be a little bit of specialty malt or a maltier base malt for me.
 
I think that Dog Fish Head's India Brown Ale has brown sugar in it too but I don't care for that beer. Also adding dark sugar WON'T make it sweet. The yeast will eat all the sweetness, it'll just give it a very strong bite that you probably won't like.
So... in regard to the recipe I referenced, how would you handle the sugar? 1.5 Lb of ANY kind of sugar seems like too much for a middleweight Belgian pale. I thought maybe replacing the brown sugar with 1.5# Pilsen DME and .5 LB amber to dark candi. I was planning on pitching it onto an existing cake of Wyeast 3711 instead of the called-for yeast, for something closer to a Biere de Garde profile.
 
So... in regard to the recipe I referenced, how would you handle the sugar? 1.5 Lb of ANY kind of sugar seems like too much for a middleweight Belgian pale. I thought maybe replacing the brown sugar with 1.5# Pilsen DME and .5 LB amber to dark candi. I was planning on pitching it onto an existing cake of Wyeast 3711 instead of the called-for yeast, for something closer to a Biere de Garde profile.

Sounds fine to me. The last time I used a pound of amber candi sugar it came out smelling and tasting pretty boozy until I let it age a while, but it took a MUCH MUCH shorter time for that to age out then the brown sugar bite, a half pound should be fine though.
 
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