attenuation

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Merlinus

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hello, i am planing to brew a tripel and a dubbel beer, both extract - partial mash recipes, in the dubbel im using 14.5 % candi rocks sugar, and in tripel 15.9% candi rocks.

im going to use some speciality grains also, mashing them at 72 celsius degrees

apparent attenuation for both dubbel and tripel is 75% in http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebre...pe/calculator/

i use the yeast wyeast 1762 ? is it possible to be higher than 75% ? for triple i was planing to achive an attenuation of 85%-88% but in that case i should lower the malt extract and sugar to keep the abv same as 75% attenuation ?

thx
 
72oC would be about 161oF and that's pretty high, at that high a mash temp I would be surprised if you even got 75% attenuation due to the high amount of less fermentable sugars in the wort. I would personally shoot for 68oC closer to 156oF for better attenuation, if you want higher than drop your mash temp even more.

Keep in mind the higher the attenuation the drier your may turn out. It really depends on the OG and the FG you are looking to achieve.
 
yes i know, but my recipe are extract based. do you think will count too much the mash temp ? i plan to add yeast nutrient also. you think will help for a better attenuation ? do i use too much candi sugar ? or this will help for a good attenuation ?

Dubbel – ABV 7% (OG 1072 - FG 1018) IBU 21 - SRM 24
apparent attenuation: 75%
efficiency: 60%

1.37 kg malt extract light (60 min)
330 gr candi rocks sugar amber(10 min) 14.5%
80 gr priming sugar

200 gr malt german abbey (mash 30 min)
150 gr malt belgian special b (mash 30 min)
100 gr malt belgian biscuit (mash 30 min)
75 gr malt german wheat (mash 30 min)
50 gr malt belgian chocolate (mash 30 min)

Tripel - ABV 8.5% (OG 1087 FG - 1022) IBU 36 - SRM 7.8
apparent attenuation: 75%
efficiency: 60%

1.67 kg malt extract light (60 min)
430 gr light candi sugar (10 min) - 15.9%
80 gr priming sugar

225 gr malt german abbey (mash 30 min)
225 gr malt german carapils (mash 30 min)
75 gr malt belgian biscuit (mash 30 min)
75 gr malt german wheat (mash 30 min)

for the dubbel i would want an 80% attenuation and 85% for the tripel
 
From the recipes bit appears that you are doing extract with steeped grains, not partial mash. Mash temp would have no effect in this case. 75% is good attenuation, are you simply looking to get a higher ABV? If so simply bump up the extract amount to get the desired %. With extract it is difficult to achieve a higher % of attenuation depending on the freshness of the extract and what malts it is made of

Also the strain of yeast will play a factor as some strains attenuate better than others
 
hello. yes. except i will mash them instead of just steeping (its not too much extra effort). i dont want a higher abv, but a better attenuation, for a dry taste instead of sweet taste. i will use Wyeast 1762 (rochefort strain). the extract im using is from Muntons (the light one). i will also add yeast nutrients, maybe will give me a better attenuation.
 
hello. yes. except i will mash them instead of just steeping (its not too much extra effort). i dont want a higher abv, but a better attenuation, for a dry taste instead of sweet taste. i will use Wyeast 1762 (rochefort strain). the extract im using is from Muntons (the light one). i will also add yeast nutrients, maybe will give me a better attenuation. also im using 15-17% candi sugar, i heard also this will boost the attenuation
 
The best attenuation will result from pitching the right amount of yeast. Make you starters based on the production date, % viability, of the yeast. Deduct 10% from the viability if the yeast may have been transported to warm for a day.
 
im not planing to use a starter, since i will use one vial of yeast for only 9-10 liters of wort.
 
im not planing to use a starter, since i will use one vial of yeast for only 9-10 liters of wort.

Check out the BF calculator, use the high gravity ale tab. Production date for, White Labs yeast in vials, is four months previous to the expiration date.
Did you mean a smack pack of WY 1762? Wyeast prints the production date on their packaging.
 
1762 is rated at 73-77% attenuation, even if you mash the small amount of grain and sugar in this recipe I personally do not see you getting into the 80% range for attenuation although YMMV....
 
Sorry in advance for not giving the complete answer in this post. I'm about to head out the door and I can't find the information on the internet.

Brewer's Friend and I think other brewing software do not take into account that you are using simple sugars in your recipe. Yeast will convert 100% of the simple sugars into alcohol. Usually, only 75% or so of the sugars from grains are converted into alcohol.

I know I have seen this explained well with calculations but I have not been able to find it. Something about Points per Pound per Gallon.

I have been thinking about setting up a spreadsheet to calculate this but have not had the time to do it yet.

With 15% of your recipe simple sugars you will definitely have an attenuation higher than 75%
 
Sorry in advance for not giving the complete answer in this post. I'm about to head out the door and I can't find the information on the internet.

Brewer's Friend and I think other brewing software do not take into account that you are using simple sugars in your recipe. Yeast will convert 100% of the simple sugars into alcohol. Usually, only 75% or so of the sugars from grains are converted into alcohol.

I know I have seen this explained well with calculations but I have not been able to find it. Something about Points per Pound per Gallon.

I have been thinking about setting up a spreadsheet to calculate this but have not had the time to do it yet.

With 15% of your recipe simple sugars you will definitely have an attenuation higher than 75%

Possibly but not necessarily, the yeast can crap out eating all the simple sugars first and not be able to fully ferment the more complex extract sugars, it's a crap shoot IMO
 
thank you guys. i will try my recipe as it is, and see how it goes, if i get a better attenuation (and a higher abv), no prob, i will adjust the recipe for the second batch, anyway i will post the results here (if you care), to see how it goes. i plan to leave it in fermentor for 3 weeks (i will take a record then) then bottle it and ferment in bottle for 2 weeks, and then bottle condition at 10 o C for 3 months.
 
thank you guys. i will try my recipe as it is, and see how it goes, if i get a better attenuation (and a higher abv), no prob, i will adjust the recipe for the second batch, anyway i will post the results here (if you care), to see how it goes. i plan to leave it in fermentor for 3 weeks (i will take a record then) then bottle it and ferment in bottle for 2 weeks, and then bottle condition at 10 o C for 3 months.

Bottle conditioning, to carbonate the beer, is done at room temperature, 21°C to 24°C. High gravity beers take longer than low gravity beers. Bottle condition for two months, then chill a bottle for 5 days to see if it has reached the carbonation level you want.
 
See if I can explain this. Sorry, but I will have to convert everything into pounds and gallons.

For the Tripel Recipe you will have

2.5 gallons
3.7 lbs of LME
1 lb of Sugar

LME has 37 PPG (Points per Pound per Gallon)
Sugar has 46 PPG

LME (3.7x37)/2.5 = 54.76
Sugar (1x46)/2.5 = 18.4

This give an approximate OG of 1.073 for the LME and Sugar.

Brewers Friend will take this OG to calculate the Final gravity so 75% of 73 = 54.75
1.073 - 1.054 = 1.019

Sugar is fermented completely so you really should just look at the LME for the final gravity.
75% of 55 = 41.25 1.055 - 1.041 = 1.014 The final gravity will be closer to 1.014.

Using the OG of 1.073 and Final Gravity of 1.014 you get an attenuation of 81%
 
if i put my recipe in brewer's friend, it shows me 1087 OG and 1022 FG for the Tripel

and btw the yeast is produced on: 12 th may 2014

ok thanks. if i try to get an atteunation of 85% then the recipe should be modified, otherwise the beer would get to strong. here it is how it should look for 85% attenuation


Tripel - ABV 8.5% (OG 1077 FG - 1011) IBU 36 - SRM 7.4


Apparent attenuation: 85%
Efficiency: 60%

Fermentables:
1.42 kg light malt extract (60 min) - 58.7%
400 gr light candy sugar (10 min) - 16.5%
80 gr priming sugar

Malts:
225 gr malt german abbey (steep 30 min)
225 gr malt german carapils (steep 30 min)
75 gr malt belgian biscuit (steep 30 min)
75 gr malt german wheat (steep 30 min)

Hops:
20 gr styrian goldings (bittering) (60 min)
10 gr hallertau mittelfrueh (flavor) (30 min)
9 gr hallertau mittelfrueh (aroma) (5 min)

Spices & Others:
8 gr crushed corriander (5 min)
1/2 tsp yeast nutrient (fermentator)

Yeast:
Wyeast 1762 - Belgian Abbey II™

the recipe is still ok ?
 
if i put my recipe in brewer's friend, it shows me 1087 OG and 1022 FG for the Tripel

and btw the yeast is produced on: 12 th may 2014

ok thanks. if i try to get an atteunation of 85% then the recipe should be modified, otherwise the beer would get to strong. here it is how it should look for 85% attenuation


Tripel - ABV 8.5% (OG 1077 FG - 1011) IBU 36 - SRM 7.4


Apparent attenuation: 85%
Efficiency: 60%

Fermentables:
1.42 kg light malt extract (60 min) - 58.7%
400 gr light candy sugar (10 min) - 16.5%
80 gr priming sugar

Malts:
225 gr malt german abbey (steep 30 min)
225 gr malt german carapils (steep 30 min)
75 gr malt belgian biscuit (steep 30 min)
75 gr malt german wheat (steep 30 min)

Hops:
20 gr styrian goldings (bittering) (60 min)
10 gr hallertau mittelfrueh (flavor) (30 min)
9 gr hallertau mittelfrueh (aroma) (5 min)

Spices & Others:
8 gr crushed corriander (5 min)
1/2 tsp yeast nutrient (fermentator)

Yeast:
Wyeast 1762 - Belgian Abbey II™

the recipe is still ok ?


When I put the recipe in Brewer's Friend I get an OG of 1.070. This is also assuming you are extracting sugars from your steeped grains. Do this with 149 degree Fahrenheit water. I would have extra LME on hand just in case you are a little low with your OG.
 
if im low in OG, how i will add the Dry Malt Extract ?

yes. i will pour the wort from kettle to fermentor, and then also stir well. also i will add yeast nutrient, which should help ?

how to make an starter ? i never used liquid yeast, only dry. thx !
 
if im low in OG, how i will add the Dry Malt Extract ?

yes. i will pour the wort from kettle to fermentor, and then also stir well. also i will add yeast nutrient, which should help ?

how to make an starter ? i never used liquid yeast, only dry. thx !

To bring the OG up, if necessary, the DME needs to be boiled in a small amount of water to dissolve the sugars into a solution.

Aerate the wort very well after it is in the fermentor, before pitching the yeast.

Yeast nutrient needs to be in the boil at least 15 minutes to kill bacteria that may be in it and get it into solution.
 
ok thanks. but if i make a starter, my wort will be 9.5 liters + 2 liters the starter i will get to 11.5 liters ? it will dilute my beer ? thx
 
Make your starter. Then place starter in fridge to settle out the yeast. This can take a few days. The day of you brew day take the starter out and pour off the top liquid. Let the yeast warm up to room temperature while you are brewing. Swirl yeast and pitch.

Doing this requires some planning ahead to have time to make the starter and then have time to cold crash the starter.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
im a little afraid to make a starter , i tried two times to harvest yeast from trappist beers, and both times in the first 2-3 days it was ok, but after that something white formed on the surface, and it had a strange smell....
 
im a little afraid to make a starter , i tried two times to harvest yeast from trappist beers, and both times in the first 2-3 days it was ok, but after that something white formed on the surface, and it had a strange smell....

Then you are having sanitation issues if your starters are getting infected although the white foam might be nothing more than krausen and in all honesty, starter don't always smell pleasant;)

If you start with good yeast, practice proper sanitation throughout there should be no issues in making a proper starter. For a beer as large as the one you want to make and the attenuation you are looking for, you won't get there with simply the pack of yeast you have. If cost isn't an issue you can certainly go buy 2-3 packs of fresh yeast and pitch them all.
 
it wasn't foam, but skim (film), don't know how to call it.

just as a reminder, my batch is 9.5 liters (2.5 gallons), half of a normal batch. what do you think ?
 
it wasn't foam, but skim (film), don't know how to call it.

just as a reminder, my batch is 9.5 liters (2.5 gallons), half of a normal batch. what do you think ?

Go to the site I referenced in the prior post, plug in the numbers including the date on the pack and see how many cells you need and get from a starter.
 
Go to the site I referenced in the prior post, plug in the numbers including the date on the pack and see how many cells you need and get from a starter.

177-199 billions depending on the original gravity

but look what they say on their website:

Activator™ Product Information and Usage

Activator™ packages are designed for direct inoculation of 5 gallons of standard* wort. Activator™ packages contain live yeast cells in a liquid slurry. This yeast slurry is packaged in an optimum condition for storage, while maintaining the ability for rapid and complete fermentation.

Activator™ packages include a sterile liquid nutrient pouch that, when “smacked”, releases its contents into the yeast slurry and “activates” the package. The available nutrients initiate the culture’s metabolism which in turn generates CO2 and causes swelling of the package. This process will reduce lag times by preparing the yeast for a healthy fermentation prior to inoculation. Activation also serves as a viability test of the culture. Expansion of the package is an indicator of healthy (viable and vital) yeast. Although beneficial, cultures do not need to be activated prior to inoculation.

Usage

The Activator™ package contains a minimum of 100 billion cells in a yeast slurry.. The Activator™ is designed to directly inoculate 5 gallons of standard strength ale wort (1.034-1.060 SG) with professional pitching rates. For lagers, we recommend inoculating the wort at warm temperatures (68-70°F/ 20-21°C), waiting for signs of fermentation, and then adjusting to the desired temperature. Alternatively, for pitching into cold conditions (34-58°F/ 1-14°C) or higher gravity wort, we recommend increasing this pitching rate. This can be achieved by pitching additional Activator™ packages or by making a starter culture. Please see the Pitch Rate section for additional information.

Full swelling of Activator™ packages is not required for their use. The contents of Activator™ packages may be direct-pitched without prior activation. Our smack pack technology is intended to be a tool for your use in determining viability, and in initiating metabolism for faster starts to fermentation.

Best if Used by: This package is best when used within 6 months of the manufacturer’s date when stored between 34-40°F (1-4°C). Older yeast or yeast that has been exposed to higher or lower temperatures may take longer to become active or swell.
 
Not sure where you got those numbers, I plugged in your batch size, date of pack, etc. The beer at OG of 1.087 at 2.5 gallons requires 148B cells. Your pack date of 5/12/14 is only 6.7% viable leaving you with 6.7B cells. If you have a stir plate and can make a 1L starter you will produce 154B cells. If you do not have a stir plate and can only shake you will need a multi-step starter.

Again, here is the site: http://www.yeastcalc.co/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator
 
Not sure where you got those numbers, I plugged in your batch size, date of pack, etc. The beer at OG of 1.087 at 2.5 gallons requires 148B cells. Your pack date of 5/12/14 is only 6.7% viable leaving you with 6.7B cells. If you have a stir plate and can make a 1L starter you will produce 154B cells. If you do not have a stir plate and can only shake you will need a multi-step starter.

Again, here is the site: http://www.yeastcalc.co/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator

you got 148b cells because you selected ale, but my beer is a high gravity ale. and i dont have a stir plate
 
Got it, without a stir plate you will need to do multi steps so plug in the numbers for each step and select the shake method to determine how many steps you need. Start with a 1.5L volume and go from there or as mentioned before buy fresh yeast
 
177-199 billions depending on the original gravity

but look what they say on their website:

Activator™ Product Information and Usage

Activator™ packages are designed for direct inoculation of 5 gallons of standard* wort. Activator™ packages contain live yeast cells in a liquid slurry. This yeast slurry is packaged in an optimum condition for storage, while maintaining the ability for rapid and complete fermentation.

Activator™ packages include a sterile liquid nutrient pouch that, when “smacked”, releases its contents into the yeast slurry and “activates” the package. The available nutrients initiate the culture’s metabolism which in turn generates CO2 and causes swelling of the package. This process will reduce lag times by preparing the yeast for a healthy fermentation prior to inoculation. Activation also serves as a viability test of the culture. Expansion of the package is an indicator of healthy (viable and vital) yeast. Although beneficial, cultures do not need to be activated prior to inoculation.

Usage

The Activator™ package contains a minimum of 100 billion cells in a yeast slurry.. The Activator™ is designed to directly inoculate 5 gallons of standard strength ale wort (1.034-1.060 SG) with professional pitching rates. For lagers, we recommend inoculating the wort at warm temperatures (68-70°F/ 20-21°C), waiting for signs of fermentation, and then adjusting to the desired temperature. Alternatively, for pitching into cold conditions (34-58°F/ 1-14°C) or higher gravity wort, we recommend increasing this pitching rate. This can be achieved by pitching additional Activator™ packages or by making a starter culture. Please see the Pitch Rate section for additional information.

Full swelling of Activator™ packages is not required for their use. The contents of Activator™ packages may be direct-pitched without prior activation. Our smack pack technology is intended to be a tool for your use in determining viability, and in initiating metabolism for faster starts to fermentation.

Best if Used by: This package is best when used within 6 months of the manufacturer’s date when stored between 34-40°F (1-4°C). Older yeast or yeast that has been exposed to higher or lower temperatures may take longer to become active or swell.

Do not use the Wyeast site for yeast that is more than one day old. What they say in the site is only for fresh yeast and for a very low OG beer. Use the Yeastcalc site or Brewers Friend site to determine pitch rate and starter size.
 
i will be brewing around 12th October (im not home) will my yeast still be alive ? it is in fridge now (it is produced on 12th May)
 
i will be brewing around 12th October (im not home) will my yeast still be alive ? it is in fridge now (it is produced on 12th May)

Yes your yeast will be alive but with even less viability by then so the need for a starter or fresh yeast will be even more important.

Honestly if you do not have a stir plate or the knowledge to make a quality starter you should simply get 2 packs of the freshest yeast you can or refer back to the yeast calculator I mentioned and verify pitch rate and go from there. Best of luck!
 
Yes your yeast will be alive but with even less viability by then so the need for a starter or fresh yeast will be even more important.

Honestly if you do not have a stir plate or the knowledge to make a quality starter you should simply get 2 packs of the freshest yeast you can or refer back to the yeast calculator I mentioned and verify pitch rate and go from there. Best of luck!

i hope, because if i enter for example at the date: 1st of May instead 12th, it says 0% viability.

so what should i do with my old yeast ? i will try to make the starter. but i dont understand one thing: if i do a 2 step starter. first i start with 2 liters, and in step 2 (in the link you gave me) at volume i add 4 liters, this means i add 2 more liters of "wort" or i add 4 more (in total 6 liters) ? and when i add it at second step, i boil again the dme with water , right ?

thanks !
 
You make the first starter and allow it to ferment, 12-24 hrs, then chill in the fridge 12-24 hrs, decant the wort. In a separate pot you make the next step, chill and add to the first and repeat the process for however many steps you need
 
You make the first starter and allow it to ferment, 12-24 hrs, then chill in the fridge 12-24 hrs, decant the wort. In a separate pot you make the next step, chill and add to the first and repeat the process for however many steps you need

ok, thank you !!! and if i make 2 beers in the same week (i plan to make the dubbel and the tripel), can i make 1 bigger starter for both, or i need to make 2 separate starters ? i have 2 packs of same yeast (wyeast 1762, produced on same date)
 
You can make enough starter for both beers, split the final yeast count and pitch for both beers, yes. Just store the second pitch in the fridge until the second beer is ready for it
 
in this case i double all the numbers ?

wort batch volume: 19 liters instead of 9.5 -> Yeast Cells Needed [billions] 387
initial count: 200 (i have 2 packs)
volumes of each step: 3 liters instead of 1.5 step 1 & 2 and 1 liter step3 -> 405 b yeast cells

but the problem is that in the calculator you gave me , the Viability is going low every day, until im home it would be 0%

i attach 2 photos of how was in the morning, and how is now:

starter.jpg


starter2.jpg
 
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