Terrible water help, dumped 45 gal

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kickflip_mj

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This seems easy but at this point it isn't. This is my 3rd 15 gallon batch since I have moved to a new home and can't get my water to taste right. I have dumped 45 gallons of beer in the last month!! Every time my beer gets a few weeks old, it gets a chlorine taste. It's disgusting and in won't even drink it.

I have a fully auto brewery and it's not as easy as using bottled water. I have a 3 stage whole house filter.. One sediment and 2 cabin filters inline and it's not working. I use about 30 gallons of water per batch. I'd like to keep everything automated if possible.

My solution so far... Buy a 60 gallon conical and have it filled. Use a pump to push water into my brewery? Or get a reverse osmoses and let that fill the tank? I'm not sure what to do, I'm not wasting any more money on chlorine beer.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
Campden tablets will get rid of chlorine/chloramine from your water. Personally I use a ro system but only cause my water profile at my house is unstable and changes often.
 
Have you had your water tested after it goes through your filter system? I guess that is where I would start.

Campden should work for chlorine.

I don't understand how your beer "gets a chlorine taste" when it is a few weeks old..... does it not have that taste before this point???
 
If your water has chloramines and not chlorine you need a special carbon filter made from catalytic carbon to remove it. Or campden tablets like posted above.
 
Well thank you gentleman for all your help so far. I Have actually never had to deal with bad water in the past. I have always had the privilege of brewing with fresh mountain water.

What kind of filter? I'll also get the Camden tablets.

The taste is extremely subtle but just gets progressively worse over time. It's almost like drinking city water that has sat for a few days.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
My googlefu gives me this website at the top of my search for chloramine filters. Here is another good read explaining how to remove chloramines. You can use regular gac filters but the problem with chloramines with regular carbon is it needs a lot of contact time so you need to run the water very slow or have a large carbon tank at higher flow rates.
 
Every time my beer gets a few weeks old, it gets a chlorine taste. It's disgusting and in won't even drink it.
Well, drink the beer within two weeks and everything will be fine :drunk:

The taste is extremely subtle but just gets progressively worse over time. It's almost like drinking city water that has sat for a few days.
While fermentation can definitely bring out the "chlorine" the taste is more akin to medicinal (as you might think a Band-Aid would taste) or plastic-like and should normally be noticed right away, not after three weeks.

It could possibly be your yeast or perhaps an infection.

It could also be the result of oxidation which like an infection would make more sense if this is something that is only being picked up after a few weeks and not immediately. Oxidation is reported to give such off-flavors as paper, lipstick, various aldehydes of sorts, metallic, and so on. Without knowing your system or technique this would be the first place I would investigate.

Campden tablets wouldn't hurt, though.
 
Could you also try making smaller batches and modifying them a little differently; One batch with campden, one batch with RO water, etc.? How about getting a water profile from you local water company?
 
If you have money for that size of system that is fully automated, just get a nice RO system. It will solve everything even if your water changes threw out the year.
 
I don't understand how your beer "gets a chlorine taste" when it is a few weeks old..... does it not have that taste before this point???


My thoughts exactly. If the water tasted that bad you would know it before the beer was brewed and/or you would notice the flavor right away. The fact that it takes time to develop suggests the cause is an infection or a fermentation problem.
 
Have you bottled any of this 45gal by chance? I'm assuming you are kegging most/all of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
If that is your water, the thing that really sticks out to me is the 197 sodium..... that is crazy high, unless I am missing something. 216 hardness is high. Your Chloride is really high. Sulfate is not crazy, but it is significant...... There seems to be a lot going on there.

I send mine to Ward Labs - they have a homebrewing test that gives you all the key numbers you need, and then use B'run water to adjust. I would be looking toward RO water. I filter my tap water with a charcoal filter and I still generally am looking at 60-100% RO water dilution with all the beers I brew.
 
And, by the way, that system is way too damn awesome to be using crappy water with:) I remember seeing that thread before. Beautiful. Put some good water in that thing:)
 
With that much sodium and hardness I would go with straight ro water and build it back up with mineral additions. That's what I do and I get much better results now then when I was using straight tap water.
 
Who understands the water quality reports? I have it from my small town here;

http://www.todb.ca.gov/images/2014_Additional_Material/Discovery_Bay_CCR_2013_-_Website.pdf

That's a "health/contamination" report to let customers know the water is safe to drink and is of only marginal use for brewing purposes. You need an analysis listing ions important for brewing like Calcium, sulphate, chloride, carbonate, etc along with the alkalinity numbers. That information should be available from the water department for free or you can send a sample to Ward Lab as suggested by Braufessor to get what you need. You should also check out the copious information on water in HBT's Brew Science section.

OK I see there are some specific ions listed there and that Sodium content is very high as Braufessor pointed out. The basic hardness number is also up there along with the TSD.
 
Even though my tap water is pretty decent, I use a carbon block filter to get rid of chlorine and campden tablets to get rid of chloromines. I then adjust my water profile with brewing salts to get a balance between maltiness and hoppiness. One of the beer nerds at my LHBS turned me onto using Palmer's brewing water spread sheet. I plug in my additions to get my water profile balanced then brew.
BTW, RO water is nice but you still should rebuild the water by adding brewing salts.
 
I use a RO filter for my drinking water at home so i use it for my brewing. Also my tap water changes throughout the year so its unreliable.
 
You guys have given me some very valuable information. Lets build a sweet RO system with a storage tank together. I have a left over march pump I can use to move the water from the storage tank to the brewery. I can have a float switch and put the thing up all on one stand.

Im thinking http://www.plastic-mart.com/product/10293/infd60-24-arlington


http://www.ebay.com/itm/PORTABLE-Dual-Use-Reverse-Osmosis-Water-Filter-Systems-DI-RO-80-GPD-MEMBRANE-/181266200599?pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item2a344eb817
 
You guys have given me some very valuable information. Lets build a sweet RO system with a storage tank together. I have a left over march pump I can use to move the water from the storage tank to the brewery. I can have a float switch and put the thing up all on one stand.

Im thinking http://www.plastic-mart.com/product/10293/infd60-24-arlington


http://www.ebay.com/itm/PORTABLE-Dual-Use-Reverse-Osmosis-Water-Filter-Systems-DI-RO-80-GPD-MEMBRANE-/181266200599?pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item2a344eb817
 
I would skip the di filter. For brewing purposes its not needed. A 5 stage ro with a sediment, 2 carbon block pre filters and a carbon post filters will serve you well. I would say try and find a 100 gpd system.
 
If you have money for that size of system that is fully automated, just get a nice RO system. It will solve everything even if your water changes threw out the year.
This was my thought initially, but...

My water around here is pretty crummy and it does taste worse after just sitting overnight. Its a plastic bandaid taste mixed with chlorine.. I dont see it being oxidation since I CIP everytime with PBW then rinse.

I dont have any problems getting a trash can and a RO if it solves the ****ty taste.

Here is my set up :

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/my-insane-25-gal-100-percent-hard-plumbed-tri-clover-automated-tippy-build-409516/
If your tap water tastes like plastic/Band-Aid it could be because your home water is pumped through plastic pipes.

Water plants generally make an effort to remove as much chlorine and/or ammonia (chlorine + ammonia = monochloramines + dichloramines + trichloramines) at the plant before it leaves. Di- and tri-chloramines will "remove themselves" from the water as the water makes its way to your house. The remaining monochloramine and/or chlorine can be removed with campden tablets. Some claim that camden tablets do not work but you have to keep in mind that you need to add X amount, not just drop one or two in. There are formulas out there to help you determine the amount of tablets you will need.

There is some controversy around this (as with too many topics in home brewing); that boiling the water for up to 2 hours removes chloramines (it does, however, remove chlorine). There are people who write for reputable homebrew websites that claim to have done the experimentation and that it works.

The CIP technique would be great for killing bacteria but there is a reason why Lysol claims to "only" kill 99.9% of bacteria: there is a difference between sanitation and sterilization. Unless you are pumping some serious steam or heat through your system there could be a nook or two harboring bacteria that you are not reaching. This is probably not your problem and is more of an FYI.

Since you claim that standing water over night also produces off-tastes (plastic, Band-Aid) I think it is safe to say that it is not oxidation in your system.

However, before you go all-out and install an RO system, you should do some experimentation with smaller batches first to rule out a thing or two. Since you already know what straight tap water tastes like with your system you can do one small batch with the campden tablets and another batch with store-bought RO water. Another thing to try is a longer boil.

As for RO systems, there are two basic types you can purchase: one designed specifically for home use and one designed for aquariums. Home systems will generally have a carbon pre-filter and may or may not have a second carbon filter placed "after" the membranes. These are designed to produce "pure" drinking water and have nearly all dissolved solids removed. If you go this route you most surely will need to build your own water based on the typical water profile for the style of beer.

RO systems designed for aquarium use have varying membrane systems that remove, if I remember correctly, from the low 80% to 99% of dissolved solids. Keep in mind that fish, like all living organisms, require minerals to survive, is why aquarium RO systems have a lessing, or increasing, level of filtration. They all should remove chlorine, though, but as an FYI this probably why some home brewers who use RO system purchased from an aquarium shop claim to not build water and still produce great beers and why others claim that you have to build water if using an RO system.

To my knowledge, most commercial breweries use carbon filters to filter out chlorine/chloramines. This might be a cheaper investment for you than an all-out RO system. You can get an inline charcoal filter instead.

Who understands the water quality reports? I have it from my small town here;

http://www.todb.ca.gov/images/2014_Additional_Material/Discovery_Bay_CCR_2013_-_Website.pdf
This water-quality report, if I am reading it correctly, seems to be testing the water at the source (of one out of the four aquifers your city uses) and not of the quality of water after it leaves the plant. Even if it were tested at the plant the water coming out of the tap in your home will still be different depending on the distance you are from the plant, the number of water mains the water passes through on the way to your home, and the types of piping used (more than likely a combination of concrete and plastic unless you city is old enough to have a metal-piping system). In other words; the water coming out of your tap is not the same as the water at-the-source.

You can purchase home chloride test kits, chloramine test kits, and even chloride test kits. You can also use a swimming pool test kit to measure chlorine.

The Ward Labs test does not do chlorine or chloramine, just chloride. Chloride is an ion of chlorine, but they are not the same species as the extra electron causes the chloride to behave differently and chloride is essential to life whereas chlorine is not. Also, chlorine as we know it (swimming pools, bleach, etc.) is two chlorine molecules bonded together whereas chloride is a singular molecule.
 
This was my thought initially, but...

If your tap water tastes like plastic/Band-Aid it could be because your home water is pumped through plastic pipes.

Water plants generally make an effort to remove as much chlorine and/or ammonia (chlorine + ammonia = monochloramines + dichloramines + trichloramines) at the plant before it leaves. Di- and tri-chloramines will "remove themselves" from the water as the water makes its way to your house. The remaining monochloramine and/or chlorine can be removed with campden tablets. Some claim that camden tablets do not work but you have to keep in mind that you need to add X amount, not just drop one or two in. There are formulas out there to help you determine the amount of tablets you will need.

There is some controversy around this (as with too many topics in home brewing); that boiling the water for up to 2 hours removes chloramines (it does, however, remove chlorine). There are people who write for reputable homebrew websites that claim to have done the experimentation and that it works.

The CIP technique would be great for killing bacteria but there is a reason why Lysol claims to "only" kill 99.9% of bacteria: there is a difference between sanitation and sterilization. Unless you are pumping some serious steam or heat through your system there could be a nook or two harboring bacteria that you are not reaching. This is probably not your problem and is more of an FYI.

Since you claim that standing water over night also produces off-tastes (plastic, Band-Aid) I think it is safe to say that it is not oxidation in your system.

However, before you go all-out and install an RO system, you should do some experimentation with smaller batches first to rule out a thing or two. Since you already know what straight tap water tastes like with your system you can do one small batch with the campden tablets and another batch with store-bought RO water. Another thing to try is a longer boil.

As for RO systems, there are two basic types you can purchase: one designed specifically for home use and one designed for aquariums. Home systems will generally have a carbon pre-filter and may or may not have a second carbon filter placed "after" the membranes. These are designed to produce "pure" drinking water and have nearly all dissolved solids removed. If you go this route you most surely will need to build your own water based on the typical water profile for the style of beer.

RO systems designed for aquarium use have varying membrane systems that remove, if I remember correctly, from the low 80% to 99% of dissolved solids. Keep in mind that fish, like all living organisms, require minerals to survive, is why aquarium RO systems have a lessing, or increasing, level of filtration. They all should remove chlorine, though, but as an FYI this probably why some home brewers who use RO system purchased from an aquarium shop claim to not build water and still produce great beers and why others claim that you have to build water if using an RO system.

To my knowledge, most commercial breweries use carbon filters to filter out chlorine/chloramines. This might be a cheaper investment for you than an all-out RO system. You can get an inline charcoal filter instead.

This water-quality report, if I am reading it correctly, seems to be testing the water at the source (of one out of the four aquifers your city uses) and not of the quality of water after it leaves the plant. Even if it were tested at the plant the water coming out of the tap in your home will still be different depending on the distance you are from the plant, the number of water mains the water passes through on the way to your home, and the types of piping used (more than likely a combination of concrete and plastic unless you city is old enough to have a metal-piping system). In other words; the water coming out of your tap is not the same as the water at-the-source.

You can purchase home chloride test kits, chloramine test kits, and even chloride test kits. You can also use a swimming pool test kit to measure chlorine.

The Ward Labs test does not do chlorine or chloramine, just chloride. Chloride is an ion of chlorine, but they are not the same species as the extra electron causes the chloride to behave differently and chloride is essential to life whereas chlorine is not. Also, chlorine as we know it (swimming pools, bleach, etc.) is two chlorine molecules bonded together whereas chloride is a singular molecule.

This was an amazing write up! Thank you so much. The home I live in is about 25 years old. So most likely plastic pipes. I can not describe how ****ty my water is, the water here has so many minerals when you boil it it leaves a serious calcium residue on your stainless. Not just brew pots but also kitchen pots. I think the only way to solve this is RO?
 
This was an amazing write up! Thank you so much. The home I live in is about 25 years old. So most likely plastic pipes. I can not describe how ****ty my water is, the water here has so many minerals when you boil it it leaves a serious calcium residue on your stainless. Not just brew pots but also kitchen pots. I think the only way to solve this is RO?
Well, I am not an expert :p I am just a dude who moves around from time to time and who has home brewed in four different States across the U.S.

Man, you could have included this info in your OP (sarcasm). Yeah, you definitely need some sort of filtration device. Whether that would be an RO system or not is up to you.
 
I guess I should have stated what i have done already: I already have a large whole house 3 stage filter system including carbon filter and that doesn't help. Sadly I have lived in this area for the last 20 years on and off, but moved to smaller mountain towns. This water taste I am getting in my beer is VERY recognizable to me.

When I brewed at my parents home in college I never really had this issue because they have a really high end water filtration system.
Besides doesnt HBT need a water tank build? lol I am thinking 60 gallon inductor tank, with 12v Float switch, RO system hooked off hose, I have a extra march pump laying around to move the water to the brewery, I have an 2 extra 12v Valves that I can use to open when I am brewing and use the new brewtroller to control the sequence
(I am maxed out on outputs), Extra heavy duty casters. basically all I need is the new brewtroller, Tank, RO, Steel and and Extension cord I can butcher. lol Maybe a $500 build if that
 
OP, are you tasting band-aid and chlorine in plain water prior to, or after fermentation? I don't mean to kick up previously considered ways to resolve your problem. However, if you are tasting band-aid after fermentation, it's is clearly contamination and you should look for the source of contamination. If not, I don't have anything to say because it's all been covered. I too use only RO.


Good Luck,
 
OP, are you tasting band-aid and chlorine in plain water prior to, or after fermentation? I don't mean to kick up previously considered ways to resolve your problem. However, if you are tasting band-aid after fermentation, it's is clearly contamination and you should look for the source of contamination. If not, I don't have anything to say because it's all been covered. I too use only RO.


Good Luck,

its very mineral tasting water prior to brewing. but as I stated earlier, as the water sits for a bit the taste gets worse and worse. I have had many infected beers over the years and this is not that metalic or slimmy taste:/ sadly I would almost prefer that to this.lol

So I don't believe its contamination for two reasons. I fermented two 15 gallon batches in 2 separate spiedel fermenters. (one brand new and the other one batch old) I star-san both fermenters prior to use, and put them both in a temperature controlled environment.
 
Good to know. I had a similar problem, which later turned out to be contamination from my heat exchanger that was dirty even though I cleaned it as recommended.

I am still inclined to believe it's contamination since it gets worse over time, which would lead me to believe the bacteria or rogue yeast are taking a strong hold. Just to make sure, I would tear it all apart and look for bacteria. Either way, I wish you luck.

Cheers,
 
Good to know. I had a similar problem, which later turned out to be contamination from my heat exchanger that was dirty even though I cleaned it as recommended.

I am still inclined to believe it's contamination since it gets worse over time, which would lead me to believe the bacteria or rogue yeast are taking a strong hold. Just to make sure, I would tear it all apart and look for bacteria. Either way, I wish you luck.

Cheers,


Good idea, ill Check it first. I have had this problem since my first batch.
 
I just put in an order for an RO, 12vdc Valve, two 3 way switches, enclosure, relay and float valve shut off.. i will be using a 55 gallon brute can for water storage. Should be a good build, I will be creating a thread for this one.
 

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