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Old 02-04-2013, 04:35 PM   #231
Denny
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broadbill, you are a wise man.
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Old 02-04-2013, 04:43 PM   #232
agenthucky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadbill View Post
The take away is if a difference is seen in your experiment you cannot rule out that each wort received the exact number of yeast cells.

Here is the fail-safe in his argument, this can't ever be achieved. There are not two batches of beer brewed, ever, in the world, that are known to have the same number of yeast cells. The point is somewhat valid, one can count and estimate yeast cells but there is a level of error that is acceptable, even when dogfish head brews one 60 minute to another.



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Despite any lack of substantial evidence, they still think that if THEY try it, it will magically work...
They're trying it to see what happens for them. They aren't publishing a paper on it or forcing you to do it. It has never hurt to experiment, even if the first time they do it that it has it's flaws. You sound like an A$$ for shooting down people for trying.

 
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:43 PM   #233
broadbill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agenthucky View Post
Here is the fail-safe in his argument, this can't ever be achieved. There are not two batches of beer brewed, ever, in the world, that are known to have the same number of yeast cells. The point is somewhat valid, one can count and estimate yeast cells but there is a level of error that is acceptable, even when dogfish head brews one 60 minute to another.

They're trying it to see what happens for them. They aren't publishing a paper on it or forcing you to do it. It has never hurt to experiment, even if the first time they do it that it has it's flaws. You sound like an A$$ for shooting down people for trying.
So I have valid points, but I'm an ass for pointing them out. Got it.

I guess you could look at it that I'm not shooting down someone's idea, I'm saving somebody some time.

If I had a dumb/bad/not-well-thought-out idea I would hope someone would let me know....I guess were just a bunch of brainless cheerleaders around here, eh?

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Old 02-04-2013, 05:59 PM   #234
Denny
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agenthucky, the problem here is that the people who just want to see what happens for them aren't making objective judgements. As Bill has pointed out, there are no systems for controls or comparison.
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:23 PM   #235
agenthucky
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So I have valid points, but I'm an ass for pointing them out. Got it.
They were two separate points, you extrapolated them into one conclusion.

Are you having trouble separating concepts? Like lets say adding OO instead of adding O2 and whether that O2 in beneficial in the first place.

Also, you used 'ironically' incorrectly, probably to help make your point.

 
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:34 PM   #236
agenthucky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
agenthucky, the problem here is that the people who just want to see what happens for them aren't making objective judgements. As Bill has pointed out, there are no systems for controls or comparison.
I get it, these aren't scientific experiments. It is down right impossible for that level of control in homebrewing, and even more impossible for a scientific level of comparison. The results are gathered by people opinions and perceptions of taste. What you are asking of these people is impossible, exact cell counts, removal of O2, which makes it easy to shoot down. Repetition in large numbers however does have statistical value, and can lead to a scientific study. It seems neither you nor bill are interested in furthering the concept, with the excuse that if you try this, you have to try everything. That argument obviously isn't enough for the people who read this thread.

I don't see the harm in people just brewing as a constant (to their best ability), with one procedure changed. Whether or not whatever O2 is in there is moot, it is in both and it's effects on the beer, positive or not, are the same. To really test shelf life, yes it is crucial that you strip out all the O2. This conversation has got away from that though.

 
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:35 PM   #237
Wynne-R
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Olive Oil Addition to Yeast as an
Alternative to Wort Aeration

Thatís the title to the original thesis. I think the effects of wort aeration are well known, born out by centuries of experience. Oh wait, thatís anecdotal. Well there are plenty of published experiments too.

The idea that the conclusions are not valid because they didnít test some other hypothesis is ridiculous.

Anecdotal evidence lacks scientific rigor, but it would be wrong to ignore it. When I did my experiment I brewed the same recipe twice, a day apart. They were in five gallon carboys in the same closet and I observed the fermentation. Hmmn, observed, sciencey, right? Then I performed chemical analysis using pretty similar pint glasses and my own refined palate. I repeated this analysis over a period of weeks, until the beer ran out.

I donít offer this as conclusive proof, but it is pretty solid evidence.

 
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:36 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agenthucky View Post
They were two separate points, you extrapolated them into one conclusion.

Are you having trouble separating concepts? Like lets say adding OO instead of adding O2 and whether that O2 in beneficial in the first place.

Also, you used 'ironically' incorrectly, probably to help make your point.
Thanks for the English lesson. Maybe since you seem like the smart person around these parts, care to take a shot at some of the points I've raised relative to OO vs. oxygen addition?

Otherwise you come off as just another wanker who has nothing important to say so they point out spelling and grammar errors.

 
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:39 PM   #239
agenthucky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by broadbill View Post
I guess you could look at it that I'm not shooting down someone's idea, I'm saving somebody some time.
Time is never wasted trying something new, and who are you to value their time anyhow?

How full of yourself and your ideas you must be to be that audacious

 
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Old 02-04-2013, 06:41 PM   #240
broadbill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynne-R View Post
Olive Oil Addition to Yeast as an
Alternative to Wort Aeration

Thatís the title to the original thesis. I think the effects of wort aeration are well known, born out by centuries of experience. Oh wait, thatís anecdotal. Well there are plenty of published experiments too.

The idea that the conclusions are not valid because they didnít test some other hypothesis is ridiculous.

Anecdotal evidence lacks scientific rigor, but it would be wrong to ignore it. When I did my experiment I brewed the same recipe twice, a day apart. They were in five gallon carboys in the same closet and I observed the fermentation. Hmmn, observed, sciencey, right? Then I performed chemical analysis using pretty similar pint glasses and my own refined palate. I repeated this analysis over a period of weeks, until the beer ran out.

I donít offer this as conclusive proof, but it is pretty solid evidence.
Um, where is the evidence you refer to? The only solid evidence presented here is you drank some beer. Nice work professor!

 
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