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Old 02-02-2013, 03:03 AM   #221
Haputanlas
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post

How about...

7) what has mainly been proven so far is that it doesn't hurt. There is no direct evidence that it helps.
That's fair
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:28 PM   #222
broadbill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haputanlas View Post
That's fair
It is, but this point has been largely ignored by the majority of posters. Despite any lack of substantial evidence, they still think that if THEY try it, it will magically work...

 
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:51 PM   #223
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It seems pretty silly to ignore the original experiment and the myriad anecdotal evidence and then say there’s no evidence.

Do you think we’re all deluded? I guess it would be a buzzkill to consider that your oxygen setup could be replaced by two cents worth of cooking oil.

Is there anything that would convince you?

 
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:31 PM   #224
Denny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynne-R View Post
It seems pretty silly to ignore the original experiment and the myriad anecdotal evidence and then say there’s no evidence.

Do you think we’re all deluded? I guess it would be a buzzkill to consider that your oxygen setup could be replaced by two cents worth of cooking oil.

Is there anything that would convince you?
I don't have an oxygen setup and I really don't care about "buzzkill". What would convince me is to take a batch and split it, using OO in one half and a traditional aeration technique (O2, aquarium pump, MixStir, fermenter shaking, wort dropping...pick one) in the other half. Maybe even split into more portions to try more techniques. Pitch measured equal amounts of yeast into each. Measure fermentation time and FG. Then do a blind triangle tasting with the beers, both after about a month or so and again at maybe 3-4 months. Simply saying "I used OO and the beer came out good" doesn't cut it for me.
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Old 02-02-2013, 10:36 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny View Post
I don't have an oxygen setup and I really don't care about "buzzkill". What would convince me is to take a batch and split it, using OO in one half and a traditional aeration technique (O2, aquarium pump, MixStir, fermenter shaking, wort dropping...pick one) in the other half. Maybe even split into more portions to try more techniques. Pitch measured equal amounts of yeast into each. Measure fermentation time and FG. Then do a blind triangle tasting with the beers, both after about a month or so and again at maybe 3-4 months. Simply saying "I used OO and the beer came out good" doesn't cut it for me.
We need more experiments! I've got a few professional brewer friends that I'm going to bug about this. It would be awesome to see some larger systems and the affects that resulted.
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Old 02-03-2013, 01:46 AM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haputanlas View Post
We need more experiments! I've got a few professional brewer friends that I'm going to bug about this. It would be awesome to see some larger systems and the affects that resulted.
Agreed, which is the bigger point of this thread to me. This is a new topic, in a hobby where there are not a lot of new topics.

I've got the yeast in the starter, tomorrow morning going to split the yeast to two containers for the same 10G batch split to 2 5G fermentors. I'll put my tiny drop of OO into one before I start to the brew day. The other will only get the standard shake.

 
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Old 02-03-2013, 02:58 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haputanlas View Post
We need more experiments! I've got a few professional brewer friends that I'm going to bug about this. It would be awesome to see some larger systems and the affects that resulted.
I'd much rather see experiments at the homebrew level. Many times the things commercial brewers do don't really have any bearing on us.
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Old 02-04-2013, 03:37 PM   #228
broadbill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke2080 View Post
Agreed, which is the bigger point of this thread to me. This is a new topic, in a hobby where there are not a lot of new topics.

I've got the yeast in the starter, tomorrow morning going to split the yeast to two containers for the same 10G batch split to 2 5G fermentors. I'll put my tiny drop of OO into one before I start to the brew day. The other will only get the standard shake.

One problem you are going to have splitting up the yeast into equal batches. When you have a solution of yeast cells that equates to millions/billons of cells/mL, very small measurement differences (such as when you divide a yeast starter into 2 equal halves by eye, for example) result in huge differences in yeast number.

Additionally, even small differences in yeast numbers turn into huge differences in final yeast numbers after they have divided a number of times (as they tend to do in beer wort). See logarithmic growth curves, 2^n rule, etc.

The take away is if a difference is seen in your experiment you cannot rule out that each wort received the exact number of yeast cells. There is no way you can split a batch of starter and be sure that each one has a similar # of cells in it, unfortunately.

Second, your research plan follows Grady Hull's thesis, of which there is critical piece missing: it is unclear if oxygenation (with an method) is required in the first place, in the worts they studied. They did not include a wort that received no treatment whatsoever to test this. Their assertion is that OO has an effect because it was only minor differences between it and their typically oxygenation step (diffusion stone). Once again, this whole idea hinges on the assumption that the typical oxygenation step has an effect in the first place!!!

Let assume for a moment that adding supplemental oxygen does not have an effect on fermentation in the setup that Grady Hull used in his thesis studies. In this case, would you then see a difference in OO vs. their typical oxygen setup? No, because oxygenation doesn't have an effect in the first place, anything you add to the wort (provided it doesn't decrease yeast population) would not look any different when compared to it.

IN other words, their conclusion is based on an untested assumption...just like your experiment is. Ironically, both your experiment and Grady Hull's/New Belgium aren't being done correctly for the same reason....neither of you want to waste beer and therefore aren't willing to dedicate a batch of wort to a true negative control!

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Old 02-04-2013, 03:48 PM   #229
broadbill
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Better experiments to do to test effects of OO on fermenation:

1. Find a way to "strip oxygen" from a wort before treatment either with OO or with a traditional oxygen setup. This will remove endogenous oxygen from the starting material, allowing you to separate effects of oxygen already in the wort versus the treatment methods.

2. OO is postulated to work because it contains ergosterol that is utilized by yeast to build cell walls during division. Oils with different amounts of ergosterol should have different effects on fermenation, but in a predictable manner (high ergosterol, better fermentation; less ergosterol, poor fermentation). Addition of exogenous ergosterol should also be investigated (this has already been mentioned here).

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Old 02-04-2013, 03:54 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynne-R View Post
It seems pretty silly to ignore the original experiment and the myriad anecdotal evidence and then say there’s no evidence.

Do you think we’re all deluded? I guess it would be a buzzkill to consider that your oxygen setup could be replaced by two cents worth of cooking oil.

Is there anything that would convince you?
Earlier in this thread, I've explained why the original experiments was flawed, and why we could not make any conclusions based on it. I've yet to hear any meaningful response to it, or any assertions as to why I may be incorrect in my position.

Anecdotal evidence is just that; I agree with Denny that it not worth much. If we hang our hats on anecdotal evidence, why not start adding marbles, tulip petals, and toothpicks dipped in petroleum jelly? After all, it couldn't hurt and there is just as much data on the advantages of adding these as there is for OO.

Below I've outlined experiments that would test OO in a much better way. Unfortunately I'm not sure if they can be done at the homebrew level.

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