Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > Heady Topper video - 750 total hardness??
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Old 06-24-2014, 03:57 PM   #51
zwiller
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Even if the water was treated/boiled the sulfate is not precipated or reduced, right?

Can't someone just send me some HT so I can crack this nut? I am BJCP!


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Old 06-24-2014, 04:16 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Braufessor View Post
They could have boiled it to drop a fair percentage of the hardness out of it.
Wouldn't boiling just concentrate the ions as water boiled away and heavy ions stay in the kettle? Admittedly a water noob. I just filter and brew and it works for me. Water is on the list with the next equipment upgrade cycle.


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By the way, what did you intend the 'file' word to be?

I take it that you didn't get a chance to read that Zymurgy article? The essence of the article was that the very mineralized water seeps upward from the deep aquifer into the shallow aquifer. All the breweries in Burton are near the Trent River. When those breweries pump a lot of water from their shallow wells, the mineralized water is diluted by inflow from the river. So the levels of ions in their brewing liquor were lower than some of the historic references report.
File=dilute. Android autocorrect. It's fixed now.

Nope, I haven't read that one yet, but that makes total sense to me. I assume they were drawing from the deep wells but the shallow wells would be naturally diluted with filtered ground water and lower ion levels allowing the brewers to blend deep and shallow to their choosing based on the style of beer they were making.


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Old 06-24-2014, 04:31 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by dyqik View Post
But as mentioned upthread, that number could just be for the mash liquor, with the sparge liquor being much lower in sulfate, giving a more normal profile around 350 ppm sulfate in the boil kettle.

My immediate thought is he was screwing with everyone. I think this is a great point. We don't know where the total hardness was calculated. If this was just for the mash, then they could blend it with anything they wanted to in order to make a different finished product. Pretty much the only way to find out is by brewing consecutive batches and changing the hardness and fermenting side by side. This makes me want to get my hands on some of their water for analysis now (sending the beer to a lab just feels like cheating. So much of the fun here is the process).


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Old 06-24-2014, 06:49 PM   #54
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Planning on shipping a sample of HT over to Ward Labs tomorrow. What have we determined about extrapolating the liquor quality (pre-mash, pre-boil) from the finished product's numbers? From what I understand, at a very minimum the calcium and magnesium numbers will certainly change as the liquor moves through the brewing process. Perhaps our resident water experts can weigh in on this (although I'm sure they already have somewhere on this forum).
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Old 06-24-2014, 07:09 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by brewski09 View Post
My immediate thought is he was screwing with everyone. I think this is a great point. We don't know where the total hardness was calculated. If this was just for the mash, then they could blend it with anything they wanted to in order to make a different finished product. Pretty much the only way to find out is by brewing consecutive batches and changing the hardness and fermenting side by side. This makes me want to get my hands on some of their water for analysis now (sending the beer to a lab just feels like cheating. So much of the fun here is the process).
Well, the sheet in the video shows a total liquor volume for treatment of 776 gallons. If you know their mash tun size or brewhouse size, you could hazard a guess at what portion of the liquor that makes up.

A quick search suggest 15 bbl or 476 gal for the cannery brewhouse, so 776 gallons might be about right for total volume of water before grain absorption, boil-off and other losses?
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Old 06-24-2014, 09:28 PM   #56
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Wouldn't boiling just concentrate the ions as water boiled away and heavy ions stay in the kettle?
The boiling is short. I think that it only should take a few minutes, but there are references that state it needs to be 15 or 20 minutes. But this amount of boiling shouldn't be enough to significantly drive off much water and concentrate the ions.

The boiling process actually causes a chemical reaction that precipitates calcium carbonate (aka: chalk) and that reduces the calcium content and alkalinity. You can read more about it here: https://www.homebrewersassociation.o...p?topic=5792.0
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Old 06-30-2014, 11:21 PM   #57
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Posted the results here... http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/head...d-labs-481031/
Still not quite sure what to make of them.
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Old 12-18-2014, 01:52 AM   #58
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Default Greg Noonan - 750 Hardness

Let me preface this post - I am not a water or chemistry expert, and I have not read the entire thread in great detail. However, I submit the following:

Greg Noonan (the mentor for Mr. Kimmich of Alchemist) notes in a BYO article that he adds calcium sulfate to bring the BREWING LIQUOR for IPAs up to 750 mg/L of hardness. See http://byo.com/scottish-ale/item/310...-from-the-pros. This is consistent with the Heady Topper brew sheet screenshot taken from the 1000th brew clip on youtube, showing roughly 750 Hardness for the brewing liquor.

Using "Brewers Friend" mash chemistry and brewing water calculator, a water profile of Ca 127, Mg 6, Na 10, Cl 43, So4 268 (a relatively standard IPA water profile) for the entire water amount, with ALL THE SALTS being added into the mash, gives a total hardness (GH) of 763 and an Alkalinity of 51 for the BREWING LIQUOR (i.e. Mash Water). This is consistent with the 750 hardness figure. Further, Using the Grist from the Heady Topper clone on HBT (version 4), this estimates a mash pH of 5.4 with no acid addition.

I also note the El Jefe (India Dark Ale) clone recipe provided by the Alchemist in Mitch Steele's IPA book, says the water should have a total hardness of 400 ppm and alkalinity of 50 ppm. If you take the above profile (Ca 127, Mg 6, Na 10, Cl 43, So4 268), and apply that to the entire water amount (mash and sparge), you would get a total hardness of approximately 400 and and alkalinity of 50.

Conclusion: is it possible the 750 hardness figure is relating to the brewing liquor only, and provided you use RO water for sparging, you would end up with a typical IPA water profile?


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