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Old 03-31-2014, 09:33 PM   #21
brewmeister13
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How does the short mash affect the attenuation of the yeast you are using?

 
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Old 03-31-2014, 09:59 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmeister13 View Post
How does the short mash affect the attenuation of the yeast you are using?
The mash would not affect the yeast's attenuation at all. If RM-MN can get 80-85% of the sugars out of the mash in a short period, 60-85% of those will still be fermentable by a particular yeast.

Maybe you are asking about the fermentability of the wort instead? I think that would still be a function of temperature, among other things. I can't see why it would be any more or less fermentable.
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:13 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoHox View Post
The mash would not affect the yeast's attenuation at all. If RM-MN can get 80-85% of the sugars out of the mash in a short period, 60-85% of those will still be fermentable by a particular yeast.

Maybe you are asking about the fermentability of the wort instead? I think that would still be a function of temperature, among other things. I can't see why it would be any more or less fermentable.
Perhaps I am wrong, but I thought that duration was an important factor in fermentability and fermentability was a factor in attenuation. My understanding is that time and temperature play together. That's why people mashing at the lower end 150-148 will mash for 75 minutes or longer if they are trying to achieve a highly fermentable wort. If I am wrong could you explain to me how fermentability doesn't affect attenuation.

 
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:31 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brewmeister13 View Post
Perhaps I am wrong, but I thought that duration was an important factor in fermentability and fermentability was a factor in attenuation. My understanding is that time and temperature play together. That's why people mashing at the lower end 150-148 will mash for 75 minutes or longer if they are trying to achieve a highly fermentable wort. If I am wrong could you explain to me how fermentability doesn't affect attenuation.
Well, that's kind of the conversation we are having. RM-MN, and others, have pointed out that an incredibly short mash can produce a very fermentable wort. Temperature is the more important distinction, I think. Unless there is a very large proportion of adjuncts or a very low mash temperature, mash duration is less critical, as yooper mentioned early in the thread.
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Old 03-31-2014, 10:51 PM   #25
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I got that. The things I saw was RM MN's duration, and the temp from the stone recipes. In my experience, high mash temps killed attenuation/fermentability (which was good in my sessionable IPA (3.9% abv). I'm wondering what results he is getting on regular beers with the short mash time (I guess I was also assuming he was mashing high temp as well, but after relooking over everything didn't see an actual temp given).

 
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Old 03-31-2014, 11:43 PM   #26
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RM MN, I encourage you to start a topic about this. Your method is fascinating, defies everything I've read (and that's a very large amount), and I love it.

I'll crank my corona mill so tight that I'm worried about the fermentability of iron if it means saving an hour of brew day...

Thanks.
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Old 04-01-2014, 12:16 AM   #27
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What I have read is that the beta amylase works slower than the alpha amylase and the beta amylase is what gives you the short chain sugars that are the more fermentable. What I haven't been able to find is just how much slower the beta amylase works at what temperature. I've been mashing mostly in the 152 to 156 to get the fermentability I want.

 
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:04 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RM-MN View Post
What I have read is that the beta amylase works slower than the alpha amylase and the beta amylase is what gives you the short chain sugars that are the more fermentable. What I haven't been able to find is just how much slower the beta amylase works at what temperature. I've been mashing mostly in the 152 to 156 to get the fermentability I want.
Kaiser did some experiments that get close:



And a paper published a decade ago adds some insight.

I still haven't come across anything reliably describing enzyme activity at mash temp for the first 30 min.
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Old 04-01-2014, 03:16 AM   #29
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So, doesn't the top chart indicate that all beta amylase has been denatured or otherwise inactivated within 30 minutes at 66C/151F?

 
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Old 04-01-2014, 09:42 PM   #30
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So, doesn't the top chart indicate that all beta amylase has been denatured or otherwise inactivated within 30 minutes at 66C/151F?
That's certainly what it looks like. Although I cant be sure if there is enough activity occuring within 30min to sufficiently get the job done.
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