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Old 11-08-2007, 12:44 AM   #1
landhoney
 
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Yes, its supposed to look like this. Here's half of my oldest Flanders Red batch, the pellicle should be getting more and more funky/thick. The toasted oak dowel goes a few inches(~5) into the beer, not all the way to the bottom. The idea is to simulate the oxidation and micro-oxygentation of large barrels. I have french oak cubes in for the flavor, the oak dowel is American Oak - but maybe not white oak. I used the Roeselare blend from Wyeast and made a starter from a Rodenbach bottle and pitched that slurry in too. It's at my work BTW, that hideous couch is not mine.
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:06 AM   #2
Beerrific
 
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Nice! How solid is the pellicle? I hope someday to get the time/energy to make some funky beer.

 
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:08 AM   #3
Ryanh1801
 
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Dude I think your beer is infected, you better send it to me for proper disposal.


Looks good, I was wondering how that dowel rod worked, after reading about it.

 
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Old 11-08-2007, 01:23 AM   #5
landhoney
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewtopia
That's a beautiful sight. How long has it been to get to this stage?
The beer is ~4 months old, but the dowels have only been in for less than a month. Before I put them in the pellicle was very thin, almost translucent.

It's a pretty solid mass but fragile, I've had to move it and it holds itself together - but around the dowel it breaks up a bit when it bumps against it.
As I understand it, the pellicle is created to minimize oxidation thus protecting from acetobacter taking over(which needs oxygen). I don't understand it all, but it seems to work.

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Old 11-08-2007, 02:00 AM   #6
Iordz
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Pellicles are characteristics of Brettanomyces, which are considered oxidative yeast, which is why they are feared in brewing and winemaking. They use oxygen to grow and metabolize sugar and starch. Since no oxygen remains in the beer when they are ready for duty they have to come to the surface and look for air, forming a pellicle. The pellicle also, as you pointed out, protects the beer from any foreign bacteria like acetobacteria and mold. The brett uses the small amount of oxygen that is diffused into the wort via the dowel to reproduce and consume the remaining sugars.


 
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Old 11-08-2007, 02:49 AM   #7
landhoney
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iordz
Pellicles are characteristics of Brettanomyces, which are considered oxidative yeast, which is why they are feared in brewing and winemaking. They use oxygen to grow and metabolize sugar and starch. Since no oxygen remains in the beer when they are ready for duty they have to come to the surface and look for air, forming a pellicle. The pellicle also, as you pointed out, protects the beer from any foreign bacteria like acetobacteria and mold. The brett uses the small amount of oxygen that is diffused into the wort via the dowel to reproduce and consume the remaining sugars.
I knew it was mainly the Brett making the pellicle, maybe the sherry yeast(flor) as well that's supposedly in there maybe too. Its just questions like; how much oxygen is actually making it down the dowel into the wort and headspace, what amount is too much oxygen once the pellicle is healthy, why doesn't a pellicle form on the inside of a barrel, will oxygen continue to diffuse into the wort below the pellicle or does the brett clog up all the airways in the wood, etc., etc., etc. that seem to be variables no one has difinitive answers to that make me curious. But it has worked for others, so hopefully it will work for me.

 
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Old 11-08-2007, 03:13 AM   #8
Iordz
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Well, according to Mr. Raj Apte (brilliant brewer), about .1O2 cc/L/year will be diffused into a 20L batch of beer. If you had a 5gal batch, using a dowel will diffuse approximately 2cc O2. This is supposed to simulate the wooden barrels at Rodenbach and how much O2 they diffuse, interesting stuff. I know this for sure, using a plastic bucket is not the way to go. Plastic diffuses 100 times more oxygen into the wort, making the pellicle drop prematurely, creating an unpleasently sour beer. Jamil stated this happened to his latest Flanders Red.
The pellicle probably won't form inside the barrel cause there's nothing for it to metabolize. I don't think too much oxygen gets into the wort while the pellicle is healthy and protecting it.
You are right, there are many interesting questions out there. I would like to understand more, but at the same time I feel it is an amazing process, like true art, you may not understand but you can appreciate it. That’s why I just let the yeast work it’s magic and make beer.

 
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Old 11-08-2007, 03:20 AM   #9
landhoney
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iordz
I feel it is an amazing process, like true art, you may not understand but you can appreciate it. Thatís why I just let the yeast work itís magic and make beer.
I agree with this, very well put. The challenge with these beers is you're investing eight months to a year(+) into a beer, when it doesn't turn out right you have to change something and wait another 8 months to find out if you made the right change Lifelong pursuit I guess.

 
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:23 AM   #10
landhoney
 
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I was asked to give some specifics on these, so:
This batch(pictured) is the Sour Brown from Radical Brewing, the other(not pictured -brewed at same time) is Jamil's Flanders Red recipe(episode:http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/arc...il01-29-07.mp3 / recipe:http://www.beerdujour.com/Recipes/Ja...s_Red_Ale.html)
Both are similar styles/recipes, but different in some respects. You do primary fermentation with a clean strain, mashing high, racking off the primary yeast,(and in my case crash cooling) once the beer reaches the 1.020-1.030 to leave more fermentables for Wyeast's Roeselare blend to eat. The sour/funk comes from the 'wild yeast' doing their thing for 6-12+ months. Most recommend waiting till the pellicle drops - indicating the Brett doesn't have anything else to eat.
In Jamil's original podcast he says he uses a plastic bucket, but then advises not doing that because it allows too much oxygen into the beer. Confused? I was. Someone with "Brewing Classic Styles" may confirm this, but I think he is now advocating the chair leg/ dowel method.

Temperature is another concern, I'm going on the high-side in the 70-75F range hoping the beer will be more sour. At higher temps you are risking acetobacter to become more present in the beer. However, its cold outside so maybe their numbers are still reduced even inside at warmer temps. Hopefully the pellicle will help as well. I've heard people get good results at these temps.
The podcast has some good info, Jamil claims his recipe yields a very Rodenbach like beer. Also, the brewboard has a 26 page thread on using the Roeselare yeast where Jamil and Raj(the chair leg pioneer possibly) even chime in, lots of pics and people's experiences using Roeselare. Just search for "Roeselare" and its the first result I think - that is if your eyes survive the GREEN!
Questions?
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