Coldbreak Brewing Giveaway - Open to All!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > More Advanced Sour Mash Questions- Need Sour Expert Help
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-21-2013, 04:34 PM   #1
lastsecondapex
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenville, South Carolina
Posts: 392
Liked 12 Times on 11 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default More Advanced Sour Mash Questions- Need Sour Expert Help

Okay guys, I have been toying with the extreme end of the sour spectrum and need some truly educated advice. I recently did a 2-day 100% sour mash (brought full volume mash up to 153* and held for an hour. Cooled to ~105* and pitched a 1000ml starter of White Labs WLP677 Lactobacillus, and about 1lb of unmilled pearl malt and let it sit, covered, for 48 hours) The result yielded a mash with a preboil ph of 2.4.

I boiled for 45 minutes to eliminate dms and and wound up with 13.5 gallons of 1.020 gravity wort. In my opinion, after my fruit additions, this will be a nearly perfect OG for a 2.5% ABV, very tart berliner.

My concern is, that I would like to start doing sour mashed Flanders Bruins with ABV in the 6-8% range, and I am concerned that my low conversion from the sour mash will inhibit my efficiency to the point to where I will not be able to get an OG above maybe 1.050 without having to lose half my volume to boiling.

Will swapping 65-70% of my base malt with 6-row help enough in the conversion to counteract the conversion lost in the sour mash? Is it possible that the Lacto fermented enough in the mash tun over the 48-hour period, that my conversion was actually fine and it was a 1.020 FG that was measured? If so, How can I counteract that, since all achieved mash fermentation will be boiled off?


lastsecondapex is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2013, 06:12 PM   #2
jhall4
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Pleasanton, California
Posts: 151
Liked 13 Times on 12 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Well, doing a sour mash does not affect your mash efficiency at all. It can reduce your pre-yeast-fermentation gravity but, as with a normal mash, all of the conversion (which is what is measured by mash efficiency) takes place during your sac. rest at 153...


jhall4 is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 01:23 AM   #3
lastsecondapex
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Greenville, South Carolina
Posts: 392
Liked 12 Times on 11 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhall4 View Post
Well, doing a sour mash does not affect your mash efficiency at all. It can reduce your pre-yeast-fermentation gravity but, as with a normal mash, all of the conversion (which is what is measured by mash efficiency) takes place during your sac. rest at 153...
That was my thought, i should have stated that i used a 20% acidulated malt grain bill, and I've read lactic acid inhibits amylase enzyme and conversion.
lastsecondapex is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 02:01 PM   #4
SimonHucko
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Owego, NY
Posts: 166
Liked 19 Times on 16 Posts
Likes Given: 12

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lastsecondapex View Post
That was my thought, i should have stated that i used a 20% acidulated malt grain bill, and I've read lactic acid inhibits amylase enzyme and conversion.
why are you using 20% acidulated malt if you're also pitching lacto and uncrushed grain for a sour mash? skip the acid malt and let it sour an extra day. that way you can mash to whatever gravity you want and then let the lacto in to do their thing. lacto will eat some of the fermentables, but the amount is fairly low and can effectively be ignored (maybe a few points). that's one of the big advantages to doing a sour mash - you're not limited to the super low ABV/IBU that the traditional method is since there's no alcohol or hops in solution during the souring.
SimonHucko is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 04:11 PM   #5
jhall4
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Pleasanton, California
Posts: 151
Liked 13 Times on 12 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lastsecondapex View Post
That was my thought, i should have stated that i used a 20% acidulated malt grain bill, and I've read lactic acid inhibits amylase enzyme and conversion.
Ah, well in that is definitely true - a low mash ph will inhibit the activity of the amylase enzymes as well as present the risk of tannin extraction.

If I were trying to get a sour beer without doing a sour mash, I'd mess around with higher percentages of acid malt (I might try something like 1/2 hour rest, add acid malt, another 1/2 hour or something though, just to make sure there was time to get conversion on my primary grains) but otherwise you're better off performing a mash at an appropriate ph and then pitching your lacto to sour the mash.
jhall4 is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 06:08 PM   #6
terrapinj
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 2,412
Liked 167 Times on 124 Posts
Likes Given: 533

Default

you can add the extra acidmalt after your regular sach rest after all conversion has occurred

the lower pH during the souring phase can help keep other bugs/yeasts etc at bay to benefit the lacto

i believe 4.5 is the range to shoot for
terrapinj is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2013, 06:39 PM   #7
Double_D
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Double_D's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Posts: 1,386
Liked 41 Times on 39 Posts
Likes Given: 80

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lastsecondapex View Post

I boiled for 45 minutes to eliminate dms and and wound up with 13.5 gallons of 1.020 gravity wort. In my opinion, after my fruit additions, this will be a nearly perfect OG for a 2.5% ABV, very tart berliner.
Traditional berliner weisse was mash hopped and not boiled. It soured naturally during fermentation and conditioning. It goes rather quickly in my experience with a 51/49 rye/2 row blend. I do a quick clean version with white wheat and 2 row that has a 30% grist sour mash at 100F for 72 hours, followed with a 70% mash at 149F, to which the sour mash is added before sparging, and then a 15 minute boil with maybe 10 ibu..

Also, fruit wasn't added directly because of the reinheitsgebot. It is usually presented "mit schuss". Woodruff or raspberry syrup on the side (to get around those tricky purity laws...)

Also, I thought DMS was mostly a corn adjunct problem but when I went looking for some DMS info I found some interesting reading here:

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/04/10...e-brewed-beer/

I've never really been on the beersmith website. Apparently I've been missing out.
Double_D is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2013, 02:48 AM   #8
Cyclman
I Sell Koalas
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
Cyclman's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 5,326
Liked 554 Times on 470 Posts
Likes Given: 190

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double_D View Post
Also, fruit wasn't added directly because of the reinheitsgebot. It is usually presented "mit schuss". Woodruff or raspberry syrup on the side (to get around those tricky purity laws...)
I was dissapointed at GABF how many Berliner Weisses were served, but without the traditional fruit syrup. It just isn't the same. I like the "playing with my beer" part of getting to choose which syrup.


__________________
Give a man a beer, waste an hour. Teach a man to brew, and waste a lifetime! Bill Owen quote

Join the Beacon Point (Aurora, CO) Brewclub on Facebook- casual, fun brewing, drinking, socializing!
Cyclman is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to sour mash homebrew (AKA: sour beers for impatient homebrewers) joshrosborne Lambic & Wild Brewing 22 06-15-2015 04:07 PM
Sour Mash Berliner Weisse questions justindustrial Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 3 06-12-2013 12:29 PM
Basic Sour Mash Recipe Questions Stovetop535 Lambic & Wild Brewing 13 04-23-2013 11:13 PM
sour mash questions WVBeerBaron Lambic & Wild Brewing 6 04-09-2013 12:56 AM
Sour mash questions marqoid Lambic & Wild Brewing 7 12-20-2011 07:59 AM


Forum Jump

Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS