2 Questions About Mashing

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

andy6026

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Messages
1,024
Reaction score
171
Thread updated on page two to answer the query about the 'malty bite taste'

I just brewed my 8th batch on Monday, and having had only one outstanding success thus far, I'm trying to improve my brewing practices. It seems that my procedures have mostly been within standards that should allow me to brew exceptionally good beer, especially keep good fermentation temperature control. However, the one part of brewing where I seemed to be relying more on luck was in the mashing process.

1) I recently bought a vial of pH testing strips (they say pH 4662). I dunked one in my mash (at the sparging stage - I forgot up until then) and the sucker came out bright pink... I mean really bright pink. Didn't match any of the colours on the vial's chart. So my questions for this are, (a) what pH might that be? (b) how much does a bad pH affect the taste of the beer?

2) In the balancing act to get the hot sparge water out of the kettle and the 1st runnings into the kettle, I missed the target temperature on the sparge water - it ended up at 160 instead of 170. How does that effect the finished product.

Obviously neither of these 'mishaps' ruined the beer by any stretch of the imagination, but other than to RDWHB, what are the effects of each of these likely to be?
 
What type of sparging are you doing. Ph is of a concern when fly sparging. It is when most of the sugars have been extracted. I batch sparge and don't pay any attention at all to ph.

The temperature of the sparge water is not critical unless fly sparging when you want to raise the grainbed temperature to stop further conversion.

Make sure that the ph strips are for the range you need to measure for.

I would try changing your water to see if that changes your results. I would be very upset if I only got one really good batch out of 8. I am at 45 batches and all of them were quite good, some great.
 
I'm not sure what pH bright pink means. If it's far outside of the range of the strip, it may be meaningless. Why were you measuring pH? Are you worried about tannin extraction from over sparging or are you worried about the water quality?

The sparge water temp isn't a huge deal. Hotter water stops the conversion process and keeps the grain bed soft so you're less likely to get a stuck sparge. It may have a tiny impact on efficiency as well but nothing to worry about.
 
andy6026 said:
I just brewed my 8th batch on Monday, and having had only one outstanding success thus far, I'm trying to improve my brewing practices. It seems that my procedures have mostly been within standards that should allow me to brew exceptionally good beer, especially keep good fermentation temperature control. However, the one part of brewing where I seemed to be relying more on luck was in the mashing process. 1) I recently bought a vial of pH testing strips (they say pH 4662). I dunked one in my mash (at the sparging stage - I forgot up until then) and the sucker came out bright pink... I mean really bright pink. Didn't match any of the colours on the vial's chart. So my questions for this are, (a) what pH might that be? (b) how much does a bad pH affect the taste of the beer? 2) In the balancing act to get the hot sparge water out of the kettle and the 1st runnings into the kettle, I missed the target temperature on the sparge water - it ended up at 160 instead of 170. How does that effect the finished product. Obviously neither of these 'mishaps' ruined the beer by any stretch of the imagination, but other than to RDWHB, what are the effects of each of these likely to be?

Of you are worried about mash ph then you really need a water report to make the best adjustments. Of course you can get a quality ph probe and adjust your ph down or up with acid or baking soda. Although, depending on your water, some adjustments, like diluting with RO or distilled water, may need to be made before the mash.

Ideal mash ph is around 5.2-5.6. Too low the beer will have sharp bite. Too high the beer can become dull and even extract tannins.

I wouldn't worry about 160 sparge water. It might give you a slightly lower efficiency but it shouldn't affect the flavor much.
 
Mash pH does affect conversion, and you should try to get in the 5.2 range, but I made plenty of great beer before I decided to mess with pH. I hate the strips, never could match it to any of the colors on the bottle. The problem I see with what you did is you need to use an eye dropper to get a sample without any grain particles and cool it to room temp before sticking the strip in. Temp affects pH reading. I finally sucked it up and bought a pH meter and found I was consistently at around 5.7. I tried 5.2 buffer, gypsum, and mash salts and ended up ruining a few batches with an unbearable salty finish. Started adding 6 oz of acid malt to every brew and now hit 5.2 every time with no off flavors. My advice, get your water tested. That might be the root of all your problems. And ditch the pH strips, pH meters are so much more accurate.
 
I've just been doing simple batch sparging (conduct the first mash around the 150-154 temp that the recipe calls for for an hour, vorlauf (sp?) and take out the first runnings, pour a second batch of water in at 170, rest 10 mins, vorlauf again and then put it into the kettle.

I decided to look into the pH because, as one of the posters above said, after 8 batches I expected results to be better. I've followed some recipes that are supposedly tried and tested (such as Edwort's Pale Ale). I haven't gotten any infections that I'm aware of, and my fermentation temperature control has been good. And yet a lot of these batches seem to have a strong malty bite to them. 3 weeks conditioning doesn't seem to be enough for them to be pleasant to drink. After about 8-10 weeks then they are improving. Someone once told me on here that if the beer has off-flavors and requires more time to condition them out then it's a sign of bad brewing practices. These aren't high gravity beers either, but are typically between 5-6%, so theoretically they should be good after 3 weeks conditioning.

So knowing that my procedures are decent from boiling the wort to bottling, I thought maybe the mash is where I'm going wrong.

I wish I had a veteran brewer to experience a brew day with so he/she could point out where I'm going wrong or could improve. I've tracked down a brewing club in my area and will attend at the next opportunity.

Also, I've tried both my local tap water and spring water... and it didn't seem to make a difference to that malty bite, but I will get a water report and maybe some kind folks on here can help me dissect it.
 
andy6026 said:
3 weeks conditioning doesn't seem to be enough for them to be pleasant to drink. After about 8-10 weeks then they are improving. Someone once told me on here that if the beer has off-flavors and requires more time to condition them out then it's a sign of bad brewing practices. These aren't high gravity beers either, but are typically between 5-6%, so theoretically they should be good after 3 weeks conditioning.

Seems like the problem could be more than mash ph. Please explain your pitching rates, fermentation profile, and your oxygenation and fermentation temp control procedures.

andy6026 said:
Also, I've tried both my local tap water and spring water... and it didn't seem to make a difference to that malty bite, but I will get a water report and maybe some kind folks on here can help me dissect it.

Keep in mind that you specifically want to tailor your water for each style of beer that you are brewing. Different grainbills will give you different a different mash Ph with the same water. A water report can help. In the meantime you can use straight RO water and build up your water with minerals from there. But you really want that water report and good PH probe otherwise you are really just ballparking it by making educated guesses.
 
Pitching rates:

Since most of my batches so far aim for under 6%, with dry yeast I re-hydrate it according to instructions, and then pitch when both it and the wort are between 65-70 degrees. For liquid yeast I've been making yeast starters 24 hours in advance. Typically I make 1L yeast starters using DME. I pitch the yeast into the starter at 65-70 degrees (both wort and yeast) and leave it at room temp (low 70s) for the 24 hours. I don't have a stir plate so I do some gentle shaking each time I walk past the kitchen counter. I haven't tried decanting yeast or re-using/washing yeast. The only high gravity beer I've done (came out at 6.8%) was the one that was outstanding - I made a 1L yeast starter for that one as well.

For fermentation I always keep to the low side of the particular yeasts preferred temp range (which is often in the low to mid 60s - read via stick on thermometer, NOT ambient temp). My batches usually take 2-3 weeks to finish fermenting before I bottle - some finish before then but they usually get at least 2 weeks to clear up more anyways. I use a bucket with blow off tube for first 3-4 days, then switch to an airlock. I've only transferred one batch to a secondary for dry hopping - the rest have all only had primary (in which I've done some minimal dry hopping for some batches, others not at all).

Oxygenation - I get the beer out of the kettle via the ball valve (which also has a filter attached to it inside the kettle), and then once in the fermenter I take a sanitized paint stirrer attached to an electric drill and run that for 1-2 minutes inside the wort. There's always lots of froth on top throughout this whole oxygenation process). I'd be surprised if these areas mentioned have been the cause of non-excellent beer given my practices, although I understand they're the first place one ought to look.

The pH strips I used were indeed just to ballpark at first if this area might be the problem. Given the difficulty in reading the strips on Monday's batch, I'll try and find a Toronto water report later and see if I can make sense of it (or post it on here with lots of questions). I'm also looking to join a local brew club to see if I can get in on any communal brew as well as share my non-ideal beer to see if someone can taste it and say, "I know that taste... this is what you probably did wrong."
 
Honestly, when it comes to water, if your tap water is good enough to drink, it's probably gonna make good beer. Probably a good idea to throw a campden tablet in each batch if your using tap water though. If you have all your other brewing practices down pat, and your beer is coming out good, then worry about your water.

The strips will get you by until you can get a meter, they aren't super accurate, but usually +/- .2. Use small amounts of brewing salts or lactic acid to make pH adjustments in your mash. Chances are though, this isn't what's causing your off flavor, so I wouldn't get too wrapped up in it.

Hopefully you can get another brewer to try your beer and get some good advice.
 
Andy, can you explain "malty bite" a little more? That seems contradictory as malty is usually used to describe an out of balance beer (toward sweet) and bite too bitter or astringent. If your water is in fact the problem, I suspect you may be describing astringency but the malty part of your description threw me off...
 
PH also effects astringency and high PH will be hell on low SRM beers like pils or helles. It also effects mouthfeel and how the malts/hops taste/feel on the tounge.

Are you sure you tested the PH correctly?
 
I can't really describe the taste better than that unless I open one up and type it while I'm drinking one. As soon as I get my daughter to bed I'll do that.

As for testing the pH correctly - I definitely didn't. Monday was the first time I even tried. I forgot to do the test until the sparging stage, and then when I did do it, I plunked the strip into the mash, held it there for a few seconds and pulled it out... bright pink. I'll definitely try a better pH test just using the strips the next time I brew (hopefully within a week).

Thanks all for chipping in. I'll be back with a better taste description (although I'm obviously untrained in the terminology).
 
You really shouldn't dip those straight in the mash. They are covered in chemicals.

ALso to much of a soak can was them out, which could be why it was pink.

Take a spoon and put a enough on the pad to wet it. Or dip it quickly into the runnings that are in the spoon. Just long enough to wet the strip, like half a second or so.
 
estricklin said:
Honestly, when it comes to water, if your tap water is good enough to drink, it's probably gonna make good beer. Probably a good idea to throw a campden tablet in each batch if your using tap water though. If you have all your other brewing practices down pat, and your beer is coming out good, then worry about your water. The strips will get you by until you can get a meter, they aren't super accurate, but usually +/- .2. Use small amounts of brewing salts or lactic acid to make pH adjustments in your mash. Chances are though, this isn't what's causing your off flavor, so I wouldn't get too wrapped up in it. Hopefully you can get another brewer to try your beer and get some good advice.

My tap water tastes fine but my water is not acceptable for brewing because of very high alkalinity. If your water is very alkaline your mash ph will be way to high and you will definitely get astringency and that homebrew twang.

For my pale beers I use 100% RO water and darker beers I use a 50/50 RO to tap water. I then build my water with minerals suitable for the beer I am brewing.

I highly recommend reading the water chemistry primer in the brew science section of this website. I also strongly recommend learning water chemistry. I also recommend downloading the spreadsheet at brunwater.com and learn how to use it. And yes, get a water report so you know what you are dealing with.

Hitting mash ph and building my water for the beer I am brewing has taken my beer to a whole new level. Do not overlook this important aspect of brewing.
 
My tap water tastes fine but my water is not acceptable for brewing because of very high alkalinity. If your water is very alkaline your mash ph will be way to high and you will definitely get astringency and that homebrew twang.

For my pale beers I use 100% RO water and darker beers I use a 50/50 RO to tap water. I then build my water with minerals suitable for the beer I am brewing.

I highly recommend reading the water chemistry primer in the brew science section of this website. I also strongly recommend learning water chemistry. I also recommend downloading the spreadsheet at brunwater.com and learn how to use it. And yes, get a water report so you know what you are dealing with.

Hitting mash ph and building my water for the beer I am brewing has taken my beer to a whole new level. Do not overlook this important aspect of brewing.

You could also use lactic acid in the mash. Other acids might work as well depending on the water chemistry. With my particular chemistry HCL acid works. I only use that for pilsners as most of my beers are pale or darker.

You could probably brew a decent stout with that water. How high is it and is it Total alkalinity or just the water ph?

Besides the water chem primer, Something like "Principles of Brewing Science" 2nd edition by the late Dr. George Fix is a good read.

It's sad, but a lot of micros don't treat their water due to cost. I know quite a few that make excellent pale ales up to imp stouts but when it comes to low SRM beers.. they all have that astringent grain husk taste.
 
I ended up falling asleep with my daughter last night, so I didn't get a chance to open a beer for tasting. I'll aim for that tonight.

Right now I'm off to follow phuff's advice and learn more about water chemistry. I have a report for Toronto but at this stage for me it might as well have been written by space aliens. Although I see there are traces of arsenic in it...
 
The old "if it tastes fine it'll make fine beer" adage really doesn't apply to all grain brewing. Certainly bad tasting water shouldn't be consumed in any way, let alone brewed with. But decent taste doesn't come close to guaranteeing your water isn't the source of your problems. You'll hear plenty of advice from folks who are lucky and have well balanced source water. They'll tell you not to worry, your beer will turn out fine cause theirs does. Well, if you use their water, maybe they're right! But I don't like to make good beer based on luck anyway, so I start with a high percentage of RO water and "build my own". I'm still learning, but have made big improvements since I put more focus on my water...
 
Malty Bite Taste Description

Ok, so I've just opened up a beer that has the characteristic of the 'Malty Bite' that I used to describe my beer earlier. I'll try to describe this (off) flavor a little better. The beer is from the 'Edworts Pale Ale' recipe, that I followed to a Tee. It was bottled in early June, so has had plenty of time for off-flavors to dissipate. As for that, it is indeed remarkably better than when I opened one after 3 weeks. I've had this particular bottle in the fridge now for about a week. Carbonation is perfect, but the beer itself leaves something to be desired. Just as a disclaimer - I've had no formal training in tasting, so I might be using terms incorrectly - trying to make this up as I go along.

There's a thick taste to it - lots of 'mouthfeel' that is somewhat 'bready' in taste, but with a sharp bitterness to it. This biting bitterness is unlike an American hoppy taste. Instead it's almost like the taste of burnt meat. It is most noticeable at the middle-back of the mouth, both around the roof of the mouth and at the back and sides. It leaves a long biting after-taste in these regions that makes you feel quite thirsty to wash it away. In a way, it almost tastes like I imagine it would taste to take dry malt extract and eat it with a spoon. It's almost tastes as if the grain never converted to beer, and I'm mixing DME with water in a glass and attempting to drink it. Throw in a shot or two of cheap vodka and that is what the beer tastes like.

Hopefully that's a better description, and hopefully someone says, "I know exactly what you're talking about... this is what you did wrong."

Thanks!
 
Sounds like astringency. What's your water source? Did the recipe call for gypsum? The malty and the bite are likely 2 different tastes. Bready, malty mouthfeel are good. That bite in the back of your throat isn't. It's either high pH, high sulfite, tannins or a combo of all three. The solution is to know your water profile and mash pH. These will also prevent tannin extraction...
 
I used gypsum to try and mess with pH under less than informed advice, and my brews came out with a harsh bite at the end almost like a thick minerally taste. Stopped using it and now back to normal great beer. +1 on "did your recipe call for gypsum?"
 
I am still leaning toward water chemistry. Your description of the malty bite sounds like something i experienced. There is a simple way to find out.
Post the recipe of your next brew including mash and sparge water volumes. Use a simple recipe like your pale ale. Plan on using 100% RO water and I will tell you exactly how to build your water and we will see if that solves your problem.
 
k_mcarthur said:
I used gypsum to try and mess with pH under less than informed advice, and my brews came out with a harsh bite at the end almost like a thick minerally taste. Stopped using it and now back to normal great beer. +1 on "did your recipe call for gypsum?"

Yep, calcium is a key element in both the mash and yeast health. Unfortunately, the common ingredient gypsum, isn't just calcium. It's calcium sulfite. If your water already is high in sulfite and you blindly follow a recipe that calls for gypsum, that could easily cause an astringent bite. Calcium chloride is USUALLY a better way to go, but all salt additions should include knowledge of source water parameters. Otherwise, you're shooting blind...
 
phuff7129 said:
I am still leaning toward water chemistry. Your description of the malty bite sounds like something i experienced. There is a simple way to find out. Post the recipe of your next brew including mash and sparge water volumes. Use a simple recipe like your pale ale. Plan on using 100% RO water and I will tell you exactly how to build your water and we will see if that solves your problem.

How would you advise building the water for a pale ale?
 
How would you advise building the water for a pale ale?

Here's what I do:

Download the Bru'N Water spreadsheet. It looks pretty overwhelming at first, but if you read the instructions it's pretty straightforward.

You enter in your grain bill and mash and sparge water volumes. Either give your starting water profile or if you're using RO water, indicate that. Then it gives you a target. Play around with different salts and amounts until you get a water profile that fits the numbers reasonably well.
 
My source water was spring water from the grocery store. I thought I was doing myself a favor using that, but have since learned that spring water is a big gamble. I'm going to try RO water for my next batch, and use the sticky suggestion in the water chem section of this site to try an build the water profile according to the style. I'll also post here before I attempt to see if anyone suggests modifications.
 
Like some others have said you should look at your water report it will tell the pH as well as many other useful value that have been discussed in other threads. I believe your problem lies in your water. If you are on a well then get it tested. Unless your water is extreme to the hard side you should still be able to use it saving yourself tons of money on spring and RO water. Remember pure water is 7 so one would need to drop the pH to 5.2.
If indeed your pH is too high then I would suggest investing in some 5 squared pH buffer I started using it and it improved my effeciany and over all balance of my beer. Also go easy on water salts like gympsum, and calcium carbonate a little so a long ways especially on the carbonate.
 
ChemistBrewer said:
Remember pure water is 7 so one would need to drop the pH to 5.2. If indeed your pH is too high then I would suggest investing in some 5 squared pH buffer I started using it and it improved my effeciany and over all balance of my beer. Also go easy on water salts like gympsum, and calcium carbonate a little so a long ways especially on the carbonate.

Mash pH has little to do with source water pH. If only it were that easy! It's got more to do with carbonate hardness, mineral content and grain bill. Soft water can have a high or low pH, so can hard water...
That said, knowing the numbers is indeed the key to knowing if your water needs any tinkering. Based on the OP's problems, I'd say he needs different water or to learn more about how to modify his. Starting with RO and using a teaspoon of calcium chloride and a pinch of Epsom salt is a decent place to start while you learn...
 
How would you advise building the water for a pale ale?

I use and highly recommend using the Brunwater spreadsheet available here, https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/.
My mineral additions are based on my mash volume and my sparge volume so they will be different based on your system. My water is 100% RO.

These mash water additions are based on a 3.9 gallon volume of mash water.
7.8 grams of Gypsum
2 grams of Baking Soda
1.6 grams of Calcium Chloride

These sparge water additions are based on a 5.83 gallon volume of sparge water.
11.7 grams of gypsum
2.3 grams of calcium chloride
0.8 ml of lactic acid

These additions are also based on my grist for this brew so unless your grist is the same as mine these additions might not be ideal.

Here is the water profile I used.
Calcium - 153
Magnesium - 0
Sodium - 44
Sulfate - 296
Chloride - 55
Bicarbonate - 112
Estimated Mash pH - 5.4 Measured mash pH - 5.5. Added enough lactic acid to bring it down to 5.2.

All this being said your personal preference may be different than mine. You might prefer less sulfates or more chloride. The above additions make for a great beer for my tastes. Also kudos to the Brunwater spreadsheet. I am always within 1 point of the estimated pH on the spreadsheet so if you don't have a pH meter this is a very handy tool to have.
 
Like some others have said you should look at your water report it will tell the pH as well as many other useful value that have been discussed in other threads. I believe your problem lies in your water. If you are on a well then get it tested. Unless your water is extreme to the hard side you should still be able to use it saving yourself tons of money on spring and RO water. Remember pure water is 7 so one would need to drop the pH to 5.2.
If indeed your pH is too high then I would suggest investing in some 5 squared pH buffer I started using it and it improved my effeciany and over all balance of my beer. Also go easy on water salts like gympsum, and calcium carbonate a little so a long ways especially on the carbonate.

I strongly suggest not using 5.2 pH buffer. Several water chemists on this website have done the science and this stuff just doesn't work. Feel free to search it under the brewing science category. Plus if you learn how to build your water properly there is no need for 5.2 pH buffer and your results will be dramatically better.
 
I strongly suggest not using 5.2 pH buffer. Several water chemists on this website have done the science and this stuff just doesn't work. Feel free to search it under the brewing science category. Plus if you learn how to build your water properly there is no need for 5.2 pH buffer and your results will be dramatically better.

Exactly. Any pH 5.2 stabilizer product is just a band-aid. Download and use the spreadsheet and you won't need anything but the correct salts.
 
Back
Top