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Old 10-09-2013, 07:39 PM   #51
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I don't really have a problem if people (like your Dad) find a reason to buy this. But to compare people getting into brewing with the fully automated brewers you see on HBT is missing one crucial thing....the HBT auto-brewers learned how to make beer before they automated their systems. They actually learned the craft.

Again, it's fine if anyone likes this for whatever reason they like it, but if new wanna be brewers start on this system, and can't brew on any other system, I question whether they're learning the craft at all. Brewing is about process, not recipes.
How are the not learning how to make beer? They are formulating recipe, setting the mash temp and fermenting the wort.

Beer is all about sanitation, fermentation and then recipe IMHO. How a brewer produces pre boil wort really doesn't matter. Whether it is from a pre-boiled extract kit,partial mash or all grain. A good beer is all about the fermentation and the sanitation.


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Old 10-09-2013, 08:25 PM   #52
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How are the not learning how to make beer? They are formulating recipe, setting the mash temp and fermenting the wort.

Beer is all about sanitation, fermentation and then recipe IMHO. How a brewer produces pre boil wort really doesn't matter. Whether it is from a pre-boiled extract kit,partial mash or all grain. A good beer is all about the fermentation and the sanitation.
I was pretty specific to say I had questions about whether learning the craft, as opposed to "they aren't learning to make beer".

Beer is about process to me. Craftsmanship means something to me beyond pushing a button, and this system absolutely does NOT require one to "formulate a recipe" (no system does), but it's target market is certainly more likely to go in that (shortcut/kit) direction.

"Sanitation, fermentation then recipe" is a severe oversimplification, but then again, this neat little gadget appears to be most targeted to those looking for just such simplification.

I think it's obvious, but since it can't hurt, I'll state it: this is my opinion.


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Old 10-10-2013, 04:16 PM   #53
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I'm surprised not to see more skepticism here. Putting brewing as an "art" aside, there are some major issues with this thing.

DMS:

Their claim is essentially that this system magically doesn't produce any, and even if it did, the "racking" process is capable of removing it. This is ridiculous.

Clean-up/Maintanance:

Not as simple as they seem to be claiming. (Some of you touched upon this)

Cost to beer ratio:

Terrible, but I suppose that is a personal concern.

Pro-brewer backing:

None of the quotes from pro-brewers imply that they actually tried the finished product.

Lastly, this product is also being discussed over at beeradvocate.com. In that discussion, at least 3 shills have posted comments about the product. That's pretty underhanded if you ask me. The least they could do, if they're going to take the time to comment, is answer some of our concerns.

Anyway, skepticism is a good thing, and there is a lot to be skeptical about.
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Old 10-19-2013, 03:20 AM   #54
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It's funny to see these arguments that using this automated wort making machine is not really brewing. You formulate the recipe yourself, add the crushed malt and hops and select the exact mash temps and mash schedule that you want and you get wort based on your exact specs. Everything else is the same as a normal brew process. So let's compare using this machine to being an extract brewer where you get a can of pre-made concentrated wort. Which one is closer to real brewing?
It's definately real brewing in my mind, but still won't buy it for several reasons....cost, no 5 gal batch, no full boil, questionable dms removal, more to cleaning than meets the eye, no automated chilling, lousy efficiency (50-60%). It's a nice concept, but needs a lot of fine tuning.
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Old 10-19-2013, 03:26 AM   #55
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It's funny to see these arguments that using this automated wort making machine is not really brewing. You formulate the recipe yourself, add the crushed malt and hops and select the exact mash temps and mash schedule that you want and you get wort based on your exact specs. Everything else is the same as a normal brew process. So let's compare using this machine to being an extract brewer where you get a can of pre-made concentrated wort. Which one is closer to real brewing?
It's definately real brewing in my mind, but still won't buy it for several reasons....cost, no 5 gal batch, no full boil, questionable dms removal, more to cleaning than meets the eye, no automated chilling, lousy efficiency (50-60%). It's a nice concept, but needs a lot of fine tuning.
What leaped out at me (after the price) was that it does nothing in the brewing process past the (non boiling) point. There is so much more to brewing than just mashing and boiling! And a huge volume of posts on this site revolve around post boil problems.
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Old 10-19-2013, 03:50 AM   #56
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That's a neat toy, I probably won't buy one since my pilot system is a stainless pot I already owned and a homedepot paint bag :-P But I still think it's neat. However, am I the only one who saw the tag line and thought 'I wonder if they're using a peltier for ferm temp control'? I was a little disappointed that you're still on your own on that front. The 208 thing interests me since I've been pondering brewing a small batch of black IPA without boiling (basically set my heat tape RIMs to 210 and let it rock for 90 minutes), I'm not sure I believe that you can't do it despite Jamil's experience.
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:27 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by johnsnownw View Post
I'm surprised not to see more skepticism here. Putting brewing as an "art" aside, there are some major issues with this thing.

DMS:

Their claim is essentially that this system magically doesn't produce any, and even if it did, the "racking" process is capable of removing it. This is ridiculous.
That's not what they are claiming. They say "When the liquid is dropped into the step filter for the boil stage, there is plenty of opportunity for the DMS precursors to escape."

They seem to refer to the place where the hops are placed as the step filter. So to me I interpret them as saying that the near boiling water is placed into the holder, and that has places for vapor to escape. To me that seems to make sense. If they are moving the liquid 100% of the time through that container with an open top, then there should be time for a good deal of dms to volatilize off.
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:22 PM   #58
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That's not what they are claiming. They say "When the liquid is dropped into the step filter for the boil stage, there is plenty of opportunity for the DMS precursors to escape."

They seem to refer to the place where the hops are placed as the step filter. So to me I interpret them as saying that the near boiling water is placed into the holder, and that has places for vapor to escape. To me that seems to make sense. If they are moving the liquid 100% of the time through that container with an open top, then there should be time for a good deal of dms to volatilize off.
My concern is they hold the wort at 208F where DMS boils off at 210 (according to HBT Wiki but Wikipedia has it at 106F so maybe this isn't an issue)
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:38 PM   #59
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That was my take too. They weren't talking about "racking" as the movement that allowed DMS out, but as the hot liquid is pumped through those hop baskets at the back. If it circulates often enough and with the right surface/air ratio, it actually might volatilize off *easier* than in a kettle.

Either way, my first batch on it is going to be either 100% Pilsner malt or close to it to test out the DMS potential.
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Old 10-22-2013, 11:51 PM   #60
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I did see an additional video (not on the Kickstarter) where the founder mentioned that the 208F could be adjusted, so I'm assuming 210F would be possible.


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